😮💨😮💨
How are other countries handling it? I can’t imagine AI being an American only education issue.
It’s in France and I guess everywhere else. Students can cheat for free and no longer need to do anything, why would they study anymore?
I’ve also seen a few young engineers using ChatGPT to do their job because it’s easier than working. When I told them their code was bad (with mentoring and help, I’m not an asshole), they used another prompt that changed their whole code but it was still full of bugs.
We’re doomed.
I code for fun, have been doing so for decades and using AI as an helper has been amazing.
My coding skill in my cursed basic variants (VB6/VBA/vb.net)
translated overnight to basically any language that I want, it’s just amazing.
I can almost code in javascript by hand just from exposure, despite never formally trying to learn it
Students can cheat for free and no longer need to do anything, why would they study anymore?
In theory, they need to study in order to learn the skills necessary to be gainfully employed. But in practice, the promise of the future is “automate everything”, so might as well learn how to maximize the outputs of the Big Grifting Machine while you’re still young.
Why waste time mastering comprehensive writing when there won’t be any employers left to read what you wrote? Why waste time developing technical skills when everything gets outsourced to the lowest bidding firm in the South Pacific? Why waste time developing a talent for artistry, music, or cinema when we’ve decided the future of performative arts is whatever bot-farm best self-promotes AI slop to the top of the most trending Spotify playlist?
When I told them their code was bad (with mentoring and help, I’m not an asshole), they used another prompt that changed their whole code but it was still full of bugs.
Why do they care if the code is full of bugs? They’ll be changing jobs in another two years anyway, because that’s the only way to get a raise. They aren’t invested in the success of their current firm, much less the profitablility of the clients they work for (who are, themselves, likely going to be outsourcing this shit to India in another few years). And all this work is just about maximizing the bottom line for private equity anyway, so why does anyone care if the project succeeds? It’s not like my quality of life hinges on my ability to do useful productive work.
And if quality of life declines? Just find someone to blame. Migrants. The Wrong Politicians. China. Lizard People. Fuck, I’ll just ask ChatGPT why my life sucks and believe everything it tells me, because… why not? Its not like everyone else isn’t lying.
Apropos of nothing, I read a post claiming that the phonetic pronunciation of “ChatGPT” in France translates to “Cat I farted.” So I used Google Translates audio and sure enough, “ChatGPT” and “Chat j’ai pété” sound nearly identical when piped through the app’s audio feature.
Yeah, I figure this isn’t going to be an American only problem.
American education isn’t actually about education, but about creating compliant cogs for the machinery of the corporate oligarchy. When the goal is the betterment of individuals and society, the methods with which you teach and assess progress will be dramatically different. This is more of an “American problem” than the rest of the world precisely because of how the American system is designed and implemented. It does not value, measure, reinforce, or reward individual betterment… but rote memorization and how compliant you are under the arbitrary authoritarian structure of the system.
Despite your wall of text this isn’t just a problem in the United States.
I never said it was. However it is a much bigger problem in the US.
How are other countries different?
American education isn’t actually about education, but about creating compliant cogs for the machinery of the corporate oligarchy.
Well, historically that’s true.
But the modern American education system is about Stack Ranking to create the illusion of meritocracy. So the functional purpose of the system is to score better than the rest of your classmates. Since the actual lesson plan doesn’t matter and only the honors you get from completing the course are perceived to have value, you either want to cheat the hell out of every course to beat the herd. Or you want to find a degree plan where you can appear to be the Best Kid In Class, either through grade inflation or by participating in a class full of dropouts/fake students.
It does not value, measure, reinforce, or reward individual betterment… but rote memorization and how compliant you are under the arbitrary authoritarian structure of the system.
Rote memorization is easy to evaluate, because the answers are discrete and can be fed into a binary grading engine.
It’s also easy to cheat, because you don’t need to know how to solve the problems, just how to source the correct pattern of answers.
The teacher uses PowerPoint and multiple choice tests to depict fake effort at teaching, the students use AI to depict fake effort at learning. I see nothing wrong here.
I can confirm this is not just in the land of burgers. Back in the war from October to December, I fleed to Germany and went to school there, and the stuff I saw where absolutely disgusting: kids were using ipads (ibads) given to them by the school, the computers ran windows on them, and every time even a single task came up, they would directly resort to artificial unintelligence. When the “ceasefire” started and I finally went back to Lebanon, most of the kids were using Artificial unintelligence to write their essays as well. I don’t blame these kids, they don’t know better, they don’t know how artificial unintelligence is trained from the stolen work of the people, they don’t know what non-free software is, and they don’t know how these devices/software are tracking their every move. It’s up to the school’s to teach them such and schools are doing a terrible job both in America and internationally.
I work in higher education making online courses. It’s really stressing everyone out.
Stressing out in what way? For the viability of your job being lost to this ai bullshit? For the outcomes of students who will just try to chatGPcheaT their way through everything?
Likely both. I used to be involved in creating educational material for employers. First, voiceover artists were replaced with shockingly low quality AI models. This was about two years ago. Training prices didn’t drop and no employers complained.
The industry experts we’d pay for consultation were increasingly replaced with ChatGPT queries. Information was sometimes wrong but the employers purchasing these trainings would catch and correct it (for free) in the proofing process. Prices stayed the same, employers still didn’t complain.
After launching trainings, we’d monitor engagement. When asking relatively simple questions that anyone who paid attention would be able to answer immediately, the average response time was initially about 2-3 minutes, then about 60-90s for subsequent questions. They were likely finding ChatGPT and using it to answer the questions. We shared these findings and, you guessed it, employers didn’t care.
If we decide to ban smartphones from schools we should ban them from work too. I’m supposed to be writing an article right now and instead I’m here. Then we should ban them from streets so that people have to pay attention to where they are going and the things going on around them. At that point we’d have something like functioning human beings again instead of mindless zombies. We could still have terminals for plugging into the Machine but our time with it should be regulated (like it already is with research clusters) so that we don’t waste energy. There, the whole problem is solved and all it takes is a global butlerian jihad.
Capitalism went so hard it fucked up its future workforce
Ah yes. The education system. Yeah. That one. where the kids gets slain periodically and systematically. That education system. Where they don’t get food. The one where they are killed in systematically over and over without reaction. It’s being destroyed by ai? OK.
The story, which involves interviews with a host of current undergraduates, is full of anecdotes like the one that involves Chungin “Roy” Lee, a transfer to Columbia University who used ChatGPT to write the personal essay that got him through the door
Students are turning in work they didn’t perform as their own? How novel!
NGL, it’s really f*cking depressing when you give students 30m to create something of their own imagination, and they do it in the first minute with chatGPT and spend the other 29m playing games the phone and asking to “go to the bathroom” whenever they notice someone in the hallway.
The excuses you hear when you do something so oppressive as to request they keep their phones in their own backpacks for the duration of the task.
One proposed Florida law I actually agree with is: phones off during school - all of school, including between classes and recess. Possible exception for lunchtime. Definite exception for when the teacher is specifically using the phones as a fully engaged teaching tool, which should be no more than 20% of overall classroom time, but definitely could be used as a way to “grab attention.”
I get wanting to be able to track little Ginny and make sure she got to school O.K. and know when to go meet the bus to pick her up.
There should definitely be “Cybersafety” education in our schools, and the phone as a teaching tool definitely makes sense there.
Having AI write the first draft of your assignment can be a good lesson too, but the remaining 28 minutes should be spent understanding and refining what the AI has given you.
Can’t you just make them turn off the computers/phones and do it by hand?
This gives me flashbacks. I had to take Java exams with pen and paper. They took 6+ hours. The reason? Not enough computers for everyone and our teacher wasn’t willing to make 2 different exams, like every other fucking teacher does.
I can’t imagine dealing with a room full of kids, especially ones with phone addictions.
Well it’s better than them throwing things at each other like we used to do, I suppose.
If your school is not supporting teachers with a cell phone policy you should try to find another place to teach and tell them exactly why when you leave.
I don’t care that much. I live on an island and most of my “students” are actually just tourists pretending they’re there for educational purposes.
It’s really fucking depressing
Well yes, and it’s a tourism based economy, which means I usually don’t have to deal with any particular group for longer than a few weeks. Some groups are loads of fun and don’t have any problems with their phones. It usually just depends on which part of wherever they’re coming from, and how life is like for them back home.
I was uninterested in school because nothing was ever done to make me interested, even at home.
Later in life I was diagnosed with ADHD and now I’m a software developer. Sadly school isn’t for everybody and I just thought I was stupid and lazy, it turns out I was fine I just needed the right help.
The “evan at home” part is 100% more important than the school part. Making sure your kid gets educated at school is a parent’s job.
100%, but sadly many people, myself included didn’t get that and actively grew up in terrible environments.
I guess that’s what happens when you mum is 18 when you’re born. You’re being raised by a kid that didn’t make the best choices and the cycle continues. Although I don’t and won’t have children.
This is why school should be empowered to do more as that place is literally the only place you’re learning how to be a person and get ready for life.
I saw my dad beat my mum up. Been in the house when he tried to drive the car into the house but got stuck in the privits.
I’ve seen my mum attack my dad with a frying pan and witness my tea be dunked on her head. Or my dad go to prison for drunk driving.
Spent my entire pre high school childhood sat in the back of a car as my mum would berate the different men in her life.
Spent the following years seeing my mum psychologically bully my dad and he would be sat down stairs crying at night.
Is it little wonder that when people grow up like this and with ADHD that they might be hard to reach in school and that they are withdrawn.
I want to say that life’s hard and I don’t blame my family for the shit I grew up because they were young and not ready for life themselves as they had shit lives too. We were fed, went on holidays, and were richer than most of my council estate (I grew up there too) friends, but we didn’t get stability, love, or encouragement which is sad.
Like this is the tip of the iceberg of what shit I’ve seen growing up or some of the fucked up shit they dragged me into, being the eldest. I have two younger brothers and we are all fucked up in different ways but I’m by far the worst (as society would say) in every metric like wages, progress in life etc.
Edit: Looking introspectively I am thinking I’ve got unresolved issues for all this shit to just come out my finger tips on Lemmy 😂
You, uh, might want to talk to someone a little more qualified than anonymous people on Lemmy.
Yeah I’m not really here for therapy, just needed to get that out I guess.
Clearly I do need to talk to someone, but that’s a scary thing and not cheap.
You are correct on both accounts.
Sending you good vibes and money for therapy (only half of the last sentence is true).
Good vibes is what makes life bearable so I appreciate those my friend.
I had great, loving parents who tried their best to get me interested in my education. It didn’t matter. ADHD meant I was never going to be a good student.
Well it’s not like you had a choice in the matter and that’s why they don’t care how interested you are. You and the rest of your batch just need to sit still for an hour and a half until you get a break walking to the next boredom session.
I find it quite incredible that I spent 14 years of 40 hours weeks listening to people talk about stuff I did not care about under the assumption that if I didn’t I’d end up homeless so they never tried to make me care.
Fortunately we had a computer at home to learn about the stuff I actually cared about.
I find it crushing that they’re still making students sit and listen about this boring useless shit when they can just ask their phones about whatever they’d be trying to do if they weren’t listening to a course plan from the 1800s about completely obsolete and irrelevant things.
How can this incredibly important phase of life be so hopelessly poisoned by school for absolutely no reasons at all.
Sometimes the process of answering the question is more important than having the answer. For example if AGI is writing your essay from first draft on you will never learn how to communicate a concept from beginning to end without assistance which will make it harder for you to think.
Sure but that was not anywhere near the bulk of my time spent in school. Most of my actual learning occurred after school on the internet. School mostly made me accept that my most useful hours of my life would be consumed, and largely wasted, by external forces which I would have little to no control over and even less chances to escape from.
The “boring useless shit” your talking about is that stuff that teaches people not to repeat dumb ass decisions. The stuff like social studies tells us WHY things are the way they are. The fact that there are people in the US that are cheering for taxation without taxation is EXACTLY why we need those boring classes and why you should have to sit through them until you fucking get it. Unfortunately we’ve let too many through under the guise of no one left behind that we’ve crwate a couple of generations of complete and utter morons. Morons that stack with lead poisoned and aging geriatrics with dementia. And now we have Trump. Trump is what you get when you ignore everything else in favor of only those things you find interesting or easy.
I like to keep a positive mindset on things and although I believe I was failed by the education system, ADHD wasn’t as known back then so to them I was just an easily distracted comedian with no desire to learn, except in maths I would ask for homework as I was alright and it was relaxing and I suppose subconsciously I didn’t feel like a failure here. Again they didn’t really help me nurture that desire.
What I like to keep positive about is that the teacher is powerless to do anything and they just need to teach the most about of people as possible without letting the disruptive kids take time away from the ones who are better at school.
My issue is with the education system for the masses and cynic in me doesn’t believe that systems wants everybody to reach their potential, it’s just to get you used to routine and to allow your parents to be slaves to capitalism. If it was about potential then teachers would be paid more and we would have class sizes similar to private schools (those where you pay obscene amounts) where the teacher can individualise the education.
Chris Crawford was talking about this problem in 1992 and we still haven’t learned anything
The Dragon Speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBrj4S24074
I couldn’t find a transcription, and it covers a lot more than education, but it’s a good speech. The relevant part starts at ~12:45
Thanks I’ll check that out
For me it is
“Do schools kill creativity? | Sir Ken Robinson | TED”
which is the first result if you search youtube for “ted talk education”
He doesn’t really have a solution of mass manufactured education but he does highlight the problem real good
Actually, someone made a drawing version of this talk and it’s really good
I regularly advocate for banning phones from schools but people here in Lemmy (same on Reddit years ago) completely lose their shit with that idea, start talking how that’ll leave them defenseless in an emergency, how it is torture, how they absolutely can’t live without them
Not thirty years ago nobody had cellphones in school, they barely existed, and everything was fine, everyone was fine without and with cellphones I see so much shit going on. Yes, it’s the Future, kids need cellphones, but they also need to learn to be without cellphone, and they need to learn responsible use.
Plenty of schools do that
honestly a few years ago I didn’t agree with it, but now things are enshittifying so much that it really seems to be the better option now. it’ll unfortunately bar even those from using their phones who would use it for other things than mindless scrolling, using ai chatbots and playing microtransaction and ad filled games, but for the whole class and the whole generation it would be better in the end.
Which age were you when you didn’t agree and what age are you now? I also this changes drastically as a teen I wouldn’t see why it would be bad but nowadays I do (while also everything just got worse and worse, not to glory my time was any better)
This is survivorship bias. Many weren’t fine but you don’t get to hear from them today.
Lol… yes my classmates died en masse.
I mean, you could probably solve this shit by restricting the types of phones used to dumb phones. Phones only capable of texting and calls. Perhaps some basic access to school websites and Wikipedia too. Everything else default blacklisted.
I worked in a school in Asia that actually banned students from bringing their phones to school. One year there was an earthquake in the morning that caused all the trains to stop for half a day while they checked the rails. We were all on our way to the school, got stranded, and some had to walk for hours to get back home. The school got a few calls from parents and the policy was changed the very next week. Now students can bring their phones, but they need to be turned in at the front office when they arrive.
One girl forgot to do it once, so she put her phone her locker. Another earthquake set off the warning alarm system and her phone went off in the hallway. Later that day I saw her getting lectured hard by the staff and the poor thing was in tears. She was actually a good student, so it was weird seeing her in that scenario.
Anyway, I wouldn’t mind the idea of students handing in phones at the front desk, but I was allowed to pack a cd player, a Nokia, and a variety of other devices around my school as a kid. I don’t really see smartphones as being much different, so I don’t mind them being around just so long as students are using them in their own time.
Outright banning them from schools is wrong imo, but if I had to put my phone in a locked box every class, I would’ve lived. I just think banning them outright is bad for needing to contact parents, especially for kids like me who had after school activities often.
My only issue I had with HS teachers were the ones who bitched about people having headphones/earbuds in during class. Obviously I don’t have them in during instruction or group work as that would be disrespectful, but if you’re not at the front of the room talking and we’re doing individual work, I want to have my earbuds in. I had a study block teacher who was so fucking anal about phones and earbuds, when it is literally a fucking break class to do whatever the fuck you want/need to do.
I just really like having music or background noise while doing work.
I just think banning them outright is bad for needing to contact parents, especially for kids like me who had after school activities often.
Ok, well that’s completely ridiculous.
Look, 25 years ago nobody had cell phones in school. Kids had just as many after school activities, this wasn’t a problem. It was sometimes inconvenient, but not a problem. It’s also worth remembering, many rooms in every high school have phones, you’ll be able to use one if you need to.
I get wanting to have your phone throughout the day, I do. But on the other hand… no.
many rooms in every high school have phones
You mean like landlines teachers had at their desks?
I suppose that’s fair.
Survivorship bias and privilege. We never had phones in our classrooms.
Yes indeed. You should ask your parents about the aunts and uncles you would have had if only smartphones had been invented 2 decades earlier. I am sure they will have tons of stories to tell /s.
I’m kind of amazed with reading this, really.
No, kids don’t need phones. Do you think that after school activities didn’t exist thirty years ago? They did and omg, nobody had cell phones so yeah, so ma y kids disappeared and died because of that and of course nothing like that happened because you plan that stuff ahead and worst case, a student can ask the teacher or some central ooi t where all cellphones are kept to make a quick important call.
Same thing also goes for head sets. How the heck do you think we did that thirty years ago? Hint: we simply didn’t because it wasn’t a thing, it didn’t exist. Walkmans barely came into existence and you could wear one outside class, all fine, but I side classes you’re there to learn, not to listen to your favorite music or podcast or influencers.
Id I’d have to allow headsets in class I’d refuse to teach. I’m not there to dick around or wsste my time, I’m there to teach and you’re there to learn, not to play or dick around
My only issue I had with HS teachers were the ones who bitched about people having headphones/earbuds in during class. Obviously I don’t have them in during instruction or group work as that would be disrespectful, but if you’re not at the front of the room talking and we’re doing individual work, I want to have my earbuds in. I had a study block teacher who was so fucking anal about phones and earbuds, when it is literally a fucking break class to do whatever the fuck you want/need to do.
I actually agree with this. If I have kids doing individual work in my class, I could care less if they’re using their phones or have headphones in as long as 1) they’re working, and 2) they’re willing to put it aside when I need their attention again. I’m actually much more productive with music on, so who am I to judge?
who am I to judge?
You’re the teacher?
I know that kids may want / like to do something their way, but how about you learn it the normal way too? You can do your home work at home with music, I did that too, that’s fine, but in class you pay attention
Many middle schoolers I work with have an ear bud in at all times, and as an ESL teacher my population of kids really needs to practice processing spoken English without that as a distraction. Hell, that applies to every kid… This isn’t an issue of somebody listening to music in the hallway or while studying, this is during class, during lecture, during group work, while writing essays, while reading…
but people here in Lemmy (same on Reddit years ago) completely lose their shit with that idea
I’ve practically never seen anyone over 19 who was opposed to this idea. It’s obviously the right move. Phones don’t belong in school.
If you want to get all fussy about the “danger” of being without a phone, they can be allowed to keep it in their lockers until the last bell rings. There’s literally no down side to this and a whole lot of up sides.
I mean, I was in high school when the cell phones were largely flip phones and that one nokia brick that could probably survive being run over by a tank and at that point the rule was “nobody gives a shit if it’s in your pocket/in your bag and on silent, but if I see it or if it’s making loud disruptive noises from wherever you’ve got it it’s going in my desk until the bell rings”. That still seems a reasonable middle ground in my opinion. That way, it’s still accessible enough in the event of an actual emergency but not usable otherwise.
Is there not a way to plan the assignment so that it’s not doable in 1m with ChatGPT?
It’s possible, but it takes time and effort to prepare, and I’m not getting paid at home, so I’m reluctant to do it.
You could offer the students a choice: no AI and a 5 slide presentation, or allow AI but with a 15 slide presentation, then let them decide. AI makes work more efficient for us, so if we can be 3x more productive, I should expect 3x more product.
I taught an ESL group once. One of the girls, around 15-17, plastered a bunch of ChatGPT text on the slide and sat the whole period on her phone. When it was her group’s turn, she quickly realized the position she put herself in as she was now in at the front of the class trying to sound out a wall of high-level English words she’d never heard before. I gave her the standard score because, even though she failed the task, she tried really hard to read out all those difficult words and I thought that was probably more work than anyone else had done.
I don’t understand how you are not paid for planning time. Without providing that the school just makes their teachers glorified babysitters.
I gave her the standard score because, even though she failed the task, she tried really hard to read out all those difficult words and I thought that was probably more work than anyone else had done.
That is a tragic indictment on the state of your class. You are failing your students by refusing to give them failing marks for this shit.
• Require students to cite their sources
• Require students to show their working
• Ask students questions related to the process of a given task during class
• For things like media analysis, require them to do it with a pencil and paper without the use of computers where possible
• Treat the use of LLMs as an act of academic plagiarism
All of these are things that schools should already be doing holy shit
Yes, this absolutely. It should have always been like this but there is no other option now with AI.
Only thing I disagree with is using LLMs - if anything they should make that mandatory now because it’s going to be totally integrated in the future and they’re going to need to get used to using it. BUT grading should be 1000% more stringent on getting facts right and specifically looking for things that LLMs get wrong.
AND all that to say - using your list and other methods to show student knowledge/undertanding should avoid any possibility of being able to complete a task with AI alone.
Ngl. I bought a signal jammer for my wife to use in her classroom (after all, it said “for educational purposes only”) and the kids could never figure out why the signal sucked so bad in her classroom during class times. She never got caught using it and never had to worry about them being on their phones.
If there was an emergency, people would just call the front office and they could always reach her on the land line in the classroom.
Fuck YES (says a middle school teacher)
(after all, it said “for educational purposes only”)
The FCC hates this one simple trick
Violating federal laws is awesome, everyone should do it.
If it’s good enough for the President! /s
“Removed by mod” haha
Dunno Yeah I disagree with AI. I grew up without phones but they should not be used in schools.
I actually sometimes ask my students to use their phones to produce presentations and such (AI permitted). I just think the rule needs to be no phones in sight otherwise, and the phone stays if you go to the bathroom.
Right on. Your opinion is better than mine. I’m not a school teacher.
Because school is boring, that’s why.
Most people don’t need to learn beyond the fourth grade, especially because calculators and now chatGPT exist for instant answers.
And I say this as someone who wasted his time all the way up to a Master’s degree just to show society I too followed the beaten path. It’s time I’ll never get back.
Good god, if you went through an entire education and don’t realize how fucked of a take that is I don’t know what to say. Go try again at a different school maybe?
It’s not a take, it’s how children (and adults, frankly) feel about school. It’s not great at making you a capable adult.
Do you know how useful my two diplomas were to get a job? Nothing. Zero. Zilch. None of the theories I learned were useful, neither on the job nor for their own sake.
As for middle school, exactly what did you learn that you think is so useful for daily life? I’d happily replace learning “how to discover x in n dimensions” with basic financial literacy, for example.
The school system as it is is quite literally a waste of time. The useful stuff you learn before middle school.
Lmao. You think kids are going to be any more interested and pay more attention in a financial literacy course than they are about arbitrary math problems. I have some bad news for you about finance. It’s full of math.
Except that personal finance (which of what I’m referring to) is mostly arithmetic, while high school (and a good chunk of middle school) math is mostly algebra.
The moment letters come into the equation (no pun intended) is when you start to lose me. And its usefulness on a day-to-day basis.
As for middle school, exactly what did you learn that you think is so useful for daily life?
Off the top of my head: basic biology so I’m not dumb enough to be antivax. History subjects that require more than elementary maturity so maybe we can avoid another Holocaust. Enough physics, ecology and chemistry that I can comprehend how climate change is happening. How basic statistics work so I’m not completely lost when someone throws around misleading data.
None of that is automatic from a 4th grade education and is crucial to be a functioning citizen. Learning to take unquestioned GPT answers is not a substitute for actually learning any of those.
You either went to a painfully bad pipeline of schools or were too dumb to recognize the important parts.
I’ve been to 7 different schools and the answer is horrible pipe lines. But the true answer isn’t so black and white. It’d largely dependant on area, class, state and local Govts. School fails people everyday, the govt and its systems fail people everyday, medical fails people everyday etc. Systems are perfect they just allowed humans to organize. Subsequently also disorganize too by adding too many layers.
Holy shit, thank you, finally someone in this thread is still living in the same reality as I am.
You’re right, I was too hyperbolic when I said 4th grade was enough. Biology was indeed useful and so was history. Likewise, learning a second language from 5th grade was crucial for the conversation we’re having right now.
Still, I’d put the usefulness “cut off” point at 9th grade or so.
On a side note, I know people who did the whole of university with me who today are anti-vaxers. I know IT BSc graduates who think Trump totally isn’t yet another fascist dictator, and I know a doctor who believes name brand ivermectin cures cancer.
Turns out more education isn’t necessarily related to coming out the other side of the pipeline not being any of the things you mentioned. It’s maddening.
You gave them a task, they used their imagination to apply it, in a different way than you expected, by using a new tool which is a non traditional method you asked for but the task still got completed. They still loosely completed the task 30 times ahead of schedule by using their imagination on how to constructively solve your problem, utilizing a tool in their imaginary bag.
I don’t think it’s wrecking the system as long as the LLMs could be trained and ensure strict accuracy (yes I know they can be inaccurate but again so is any tool in its infancy), the system fails people everyday as a whole. I think it’s changing the traditional paradigm. Maybe for the better, maybe not. Time will tell. I think ChatGPT is a tool in its infancy. It’s changing the way minds think fundamentally like for isntance critical thinking skills decline by relying on “AI” but it frees up the mind to grow in other ways to adjust to the new paradigm.
I think the true point here is fear from breaking traditional values. Humans have never accelerated faster with current technology thats with or without LLM usage.
Holy fuck, we are so cooked.
This is such a concavebrained take. The point of exercises handed out in schools isn’t the accomplishment of the set tasks; it’s that students internalise the processes necessary to do the task themselves and thereby learn those skills.
Thus, giving away a task to a LLM is only “using their imagination on how to constructively solve [the] problem, utilising a tool in their imaginary bag” in the same way that bullying a nerd into doing the work for them used to be.
I think it’s changing the traditional paradigm. Maybe for the better, maybe not. Time will tell. I think ChatGPT is a tool in its infancy. It’s changing the way minds think fundamentally like for isntance critical thinking skills decline by relying on “AI” but it frees up the mind to grow in other ways to adjust to the new paradigm.
This is so obviously for the worse. Losing the ability to think critically isn’t “freeing up the mind to grow in other ways:” basic critical thought is a foundational prerequisite to fully developing as a person capable of participating in society in the current age in much the same way as basic literacy is. It’s limiting the mind from growing in any meaningful way.
And don’t get it twisted, you’re just saying this shit to be contrarian. I doubt you actually believe this development could be a good thing. Like come the fuck on, let’s say in ten years’ time you get into some kinda accident and need surgery. There is no way you’d would want your surgeon to be someone who ‘did’ most of their assessments in med school with a fucking chatbot. Who are you kidding???
You’re not wrong, but the difference is that they came up with a creative solution to avoid the task, not a creative solution to engage the task. If I ask them follow up questions to explain their thoughts and reasoning behind their own work, I get deer in the headlights.
Now, I think the tide is rising with AI and it’s sink or swim if you’re a teacher, so it’s better to just learn what AI is and how to leverage it no matter what people think of it, or if I’m even getting paid for my effort.
A different approach I’m considering is embracing AI for teenage groups and changing the format of the course entirely so there’s more interaction (incorporating AI) than production. I’ll be the first at my school to do it, but I’m also the only person there who could tell you what the fediverse is.
Maybe it was a task they considered shitty and uninteresting. Not trying to be insulting but a lot of teachers have this problem. They assign a task they think will be interesting and captivating to their students only to be disappointed or irritated that their students didnt find it nearly as interesting or fun as the teacher did. You want them to pay attention make it real and relevant to them. That last part being especially important.
Now I get that 100 percent. Avoiding the task makes total sense, especially coming from students of all ages. I absolutely think critical thinking skills are foundational to understanding and knowledge and need to be practiced, learned so much more than they are.
I think rather than free range use of LLMs or any other tool there needs to be some guidance. I don’t think clogging the system with dumb laws will do it, and I certainly don’t have all the answers. But with the usage of GPT if it can be made explicitly accurate within reason, one can gain knowledge at an accelerated rate due to the speed it can process vast data.
Its awesome to see teachers, educators trying to evolve and improve the learning experience which we desperately need. So thanks for putting in the extra effort whether your rewarded or not financially. The real people the got failed, or generally care thank you for your efforts!
Thanks. It’s motivating to hear that.
Yet they keep shoving it down our throats forcing us to delete entire systems to be rid of it
I teach at a community college. I see a lot of AI nonsense in my assignments.
So much so that I’m considering blue book exams for the fall.
For anyone who is also not from the US:
A blue book exam is a type of test administered at many post-secondary schools in the United States. Blue book exams typically include one or more essays or short-answer questions. Sometimes the instructor will provide students with a list of possible essay topics prior to the test itself and will then choose one or let the student choose from two or more topics that appear on the test.
Importantly it is hand written, no computers.
Biggest issue is that kids’ handwriting often sucks. That’s not a new problem but it’s a problem with handwritten work.
Give them typewriters
I love this idea.
There is test-taking software that locks out all other functions during the essay-writing period. Obviously, damn near anything is hackable, but it’s non-trivial, unlike asking ChatGPT to write your essay for you in the style of a B+ high student. There is some concern about students who learn differently or compose less efficiently, but as father to such a student, I’m still getting to the point where I’m not sure what’s left to do other than sandbox “exploitable” graded work in a controlled environment.
Computers with some encyclopedia, but no GPTs are fine, no?
If a kid can write and train a mini-GPT trainable on that encyclopedia, then maybe they deserve the mark for desperation and ingenuity and being a fucking new Leonardo.
GPTs are fine, if you learn to disrespect their output and fix it before presenting it as your own.
Actually, taught that way, GPT may be a tool for teaching critical thinking - if the professors aren’t too lazy to mark down the garbage output.
Only if the first draft is the student’s own creation otherwise they will never learn how to analyze a work and construct the argument theu want to make beginning to end.
Open book and calculators would seem reasonable. No communication or searching devices.
No communication - of course, but about search - I don’t think having a Wikipedia snapshot with search is bad.
Speaking from a life of dyspraxia - no, not everyone with sucky handwriting is lazy, many of us would spend 95% of our capacity on making the writing legible and be challenged to learn the actual topic as a result.
keep at it. it is worth the pain.
I can get the essay done in time or it can be easy to read it cannot be both
This is why we have accommodations offices at colleges.
No problem giving an alternative for those who need it.
Oh. Hate that. You have a list of subjects, prepare for them as good as you can, then get one you know and one you don’t, start with one you don’t know - not be in time or mood to finish one you know, get something shitty, the other way around - do the one you know and then be interrupted while you just probably remembered something about the one you don’t, get something shitty.
I have a friend who has taught Online university writing for the past 10 years. Her students are now just about 100% using AI - her goal isn’t to get them to stop, it’s to get them to recognize what garbage writing is and how to fix it so it isn’t garbage anymore.
her goal isn’t to get them to stop, it’s to get them to recognize what garbage writing is and how to fix it so it isn’t garbage anymore.
Sadly, that may be the best we can hope for.
her goal isn’t to get them to stop, it’s to get them to recognize what garbage writing is and how to fix it so it isn’t garbage anymore.
I wish English teachers did this instead of… Whatever TF they’re doing instead.
This is something they should’ve been doing all along. Long before the invention of LLMs or computers.
This is the inevitable result of “No Child Left Behind” linking school funding to how students performed on standardized tests. American schools haven’t been about education for the last 20+ years. They are about getting as much funding as possible.
I teach Philosophy.
I need them to think for themselves, which just isn’t happening if they turn in work that isn’t theirs.
So, I’m pretty harsh on anyone using AI. Even if it’s for a discussion post, I’m reporting it to the Academic Integrity office.
It’s breathtaking how quickly the President of the United States and his good South African buddy can topple a superpower.
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Unfortunately, I think many kids could easily approach AI the same way older generations thought of math, calculators, and the infamous “you won’t have a calculator with you everywhere.” If I was a kid today and I knew I didn’t have to know everything because I could just look it up, instantly; I too would become quite lazy. Even if the AI now can’t do it, they are smart enough to know AI in 10 years will. I’m not saying this is right, but I see how many kids would end up there.
This could be complete bullshit because im not an expert but i sometimes think that we could have a future where without testing and nurturing peoples critical thinking skills we end up with people who dont know how to create a rational argument or assess information they are given for its accuracy and authenticity, or to know when they are being deceived by malicious actors.
English writing assignments as simple as a book report require you to take different views and angles on something to understand it better and the nuances of the whole, but tell a LLM to write it for you and you are not developing that part of your own mind where you may learn to do things like see the whole story above the individual events noise, see things from others perspective/feelings and understand alternate world views. These are critical for having empathy for others and understanding the world around you.
And that is just one small example i came up with.You’ve never watched a 12 year old write a book report have you.
We are already there. Just look at the state of society right now and observe the critical thinking and media literacy skills of the average person.
In the words of cyberpunk author Wiilam Gibson: “The future is already here – it’s just not very evenly distributed.“
know AI in 10 years will.
That kind of the main problem: there is no indication that it will. I know one thing: current way LLM works, the chances that the problem of “lying” and “hallucinations”, will even be solved are slim to none. There could be some mechanism that works in tandem with the bullshit generator machine to keep it in check, but it doesn’t exist yet.
So most likely either we will collectively learn this fact and stop relying on this bullshit, which means there is a generation of kids who essentially skipped a learning phase, or we don’t learn this fact, and there will be a society of mindless zombies that are fed lies and random bullshit on a second-to-second basis.
Both cases are bleak, but the second one is nightmarish.It’s all based off of predictions, it has no concept of the physical world or the ability to understand facts. Its goal is to please the user, not parse the entirety of human knowledge and provide an insightful complete thought.
but we already have Fox News
This has always seemed overblown to me. If students want to cheat on their coursework, who cares? As long as exams are given in a controlled environment, it’s going to be painfully obvious who actually studied the material and who had ChatGPT do it for them. Re-taking a course is not going to be fun or cheap.
Maybe I’m oversimplifying this, but it feels like proctored testing solves the entire problem.
If everyone does poorly, they will still have to pass some or all.
Why? If everyone does poorly, everyone should fail, provided the opportunity to learn was there.
To is system and they need to move bodies.
For example, SATs scores started to crater so schools just stop asking for them to expand the pool lol
Who would you rather have as a surgeon? The one who did all their coursework by hand and graduated with Bs or the straight-A superstar who got a full ride to John Hopkins by using ChatGPT and just hiding their tracks better than the rest of the class? I’m not saying those are the only two options, but there’s definitely a reason we shouldn’t be so cavalier with cheating
Problem is, by the time they’ve failed the test, the opportunity for them to learn the content is largely passed.
The purpose of school is to educate and teach thinking skills. Tests are just a way to assess how effectively you and your students are achieving that goal. If something (in this case easy access to AI tools in the classroom) is disrupting that teaching/learning process, sure it’s useful to detect that through testing, but I’d doesn’t do anything really to solve the problem. Some fraction of kids are disciplined enough to recognize that skating by on classwork will lead to poor test results and possibly retaking classes, but generally those aren’t the kids you need to worry about anyway.
