I get the cost, but it should be an option to upgrade any current EV to this new style battery.
There’s some EVs that are integrating the battery into the frame in order to save weight. And it does save weight, but there’s no way to replace the battery.
That’s a super awful idea, so battery EOL = car EOL.
It’s not needed in today’s EVs. Things should be upgradable yes, but it’s not necessary to replace current existing lithium batteries with this and doing so would probably do more harm than good. The ones we have already outlast the vehicle’s lifespan, and go further than a tank of gas.
We don’t even know how to recycle these new types, at least we’ve made some headway with the current gen packs.
I’m thinking less in terms of lifespan and more in terms of range and charging time.
You shouldn’t have to upgrade your entire car to get a 600 mile range and 9 minute charge time if all that’s needed is better battery tech.
Two questions if that’s the reasoning: how often are you driving 600 let alone 300 miles? How often are you out of range of charging, if at all? Charging at fast chargers already only takes 20 minutes, the same amount it takes to pee and get a drink.
Charging at home makes range not matter. It’s not gas, you’re just always charged up. You don’t want to sit at 100% anyway, because again, it’s not gas.
The object is to get people to give up gas cars, you do that by providing a better range and a “refill” time roughly equivalent with sitting at a gas pump.
And, yeah, vast areas of the country do not yet have good access to charging stations:
https://www.axios.com/2024/06/25/charging-deserts-evs-electric-cars
https://www.eenews.net/articles/ev-charging-deserts-are-growing-in-rural-areas-study/
https://www.hbs.edu/bigs/the-state-of-ev-charging-in-america
You’re missing the point: it’s not like gas, and can’t be compared as such. If you have a home charger, you never need to use public charging except when road tripping, because your car charges within 4-6ish hours (my home charger does around ~22mi/hr), or overnight if you have a slower charger. You cannot do the same with gas unless you just top off at the gas pump every day.
I’m not trying to get into charging deserts right now - frankly, most people do not live in them, and thus make up less of the EV market at the moment. We haven’t even come close to meeting your given objective of replacing gas in even populated areas. Anyway, this article is about a 600 mile solid state battery that will only be in luxury $200k+ cars (which most people in very rural counties wouldn’t be able to afford), if at all. Not charging deserts.
Not everyone has a house…
I’m living in an apartment and charging at home is not an option. I do have a EV though and when we take a larger trip, I need to plan a bit more to charge up before the trip.
That sucks a bit, else it’s pretty greatI think landlords should, legally, have to allow you to put a wallbox at the space where you park your car. Maybe they should also just have to pay it themselves. It’s stupid that people have to pay so much more and go through such a hassle to charge their car because, I assume, landlords dom’t allow them to put a wallbox at their car’s parking space.
Not everyone can have a home charger. People living in apartments and condos won’t have access. Heck, even people who do have their own homes will have to upgrade their electrical panels to allow for charging.
Until everyone can charge at home, it all boils down to how much range a car gets and how fast it recharges, which is why this new battery tech is such a game changer.
Again, the people that can’t have a charger at home will not be able to afford this. It’s not a game changer, it would take higher powered chargers than the ones that currently exist, making your whole “charging desert” issue more problematic (not to mention that you first had an issue with rural charging and are now talking about urban environments where charging access is easy to come by even if not directly in your apartment).
The solution isn’t prohibitively expensive 600 mile range batteries (are you still saying you need that on the daily?), it’s more chargers.
Once again, it seems like you think EVs work and charge/fill up in the same way as ICE vehicles. They don’t, and unless you’ve driven or owned one I’m not sure why you’d be speaking from such an authoritative standpoint.
I posted about this a week ago. The battery pack will likely be around 150kWh (Nio has a solid state battery car that will be produced that can do 577 miles on a 150kWh battery). The 9 minute charge is from 8-80% (according to the marketing material I dug up) so it is 432 miles of charge in 9 minutes. Considering fast charge costs like $0.50/kWh currently, I’m guessing most people will not be charging up that entire portion unless they are planning on driving for a long fucking time…after they have already been driving for 9-10 hours.
But that charge rate would have to come from a charger that can output much higher than current ones. The highest output you are likely to find is 350kW which would take 18 minutes to charge that 108kWh. So while this battery can charge that fast, you are not likely to be able to find a charger with that high of output for a few years. Still great to be able to get a couple hundred miles of range in 9 minutes. Solid state batteries supposedly have a quicker ramp up period and can take the full output for a higher percentage of the battery.
You know, with charge times like that I wonder if roadside attractions will become more popular again.
Maybe I should start on the next worlds largest rubber band ball now.
Well most people are not needing to add over 400 miles when they charge up. That might be the case once a year for occasional families but most will be looking to add half that which is not much more time than it takes to fill up with gas. It might cause charging stations to offer more amenities. Or maybe the government could get off its ass and make it okay to put them in at rest stops, there wouldn’t be much of a problem at all.
Does fast charging reduce the lifespan of a battery like this? The headline is bothersome because my suspicion is it won’t last 20 years if you fast charge all of the time and whatnot. I realize that’s not a typical case but it’s good to understand the trade-offs.
The chemistry is substantially different, so we’ll probably have to wait until scientists run some tests to get a more precise set of parameters that affect degradation. I expect failure modes like dendrites are basically impossible with solid-state, but electrode cracking is still possible. There might even be new and exciting ways they can degrade! Regardless, this is still great news.
Engineering Explained has a good summary: https://youtu.be/w4lvDGtfI9U (Piped link: https://piped.video/watch?v=w4lvDGtfI9U)
Honestly, we do that. Almost every year we drive for 13-14 hours to visit my parents, which is something like 900 miles. We usually do 300-400 miles then refill gas and grab some fast food. We usually stop twice on this trip, sometimes three times if someone has an emergency. We also do some shorter 600 mile+ trips as well (in-laws and sibling are just over 600 miles away), and frequently drive ~200 miles, so we usually have 1-2 road trips each year.
Current EVs that get something like 200-250 miles per change would require at least four stops, and 30min or so per stop, which would add at least 2 hours to the trip. That turns a one-day drive into a two-day drive, and probably three days if charging stations aren’t readily available. For the shorter trips (just over 600 miles), we’d still need to recharge at least twice, which adds more than an hour to the trip.
So I’m absolutely interested in this kind of range. I don’t need 600 miles, but 400-500 would be good. Until they’re affordable, we’re sticking to our ICE family car, though we’re planning to exchange our hybrid commuter for an EV.
That’s a long day in the car, too much for me. Any road trip over about 350 miles gets me pretty exhausted and sick of being in the car. So I’d be OK with a 300 mile range and stopping overnight at a hotel with a charger nearby for trips like that.
That is the case for some people but cases like that are pretty rare. There is no way I could do a drive like that. Current EVs are fine for the vast majority of people but there is the rare family that makes 900 mile trips once our twice a year. For those instances like yours, I’d suggest renting an ICE one or twice a year if you wanted to switch to an EV for your larger vehicle or get a plug in hybrid.
Definitely swap out that commuter car. A used Bolt is pretty darn cheap. I did some math and replacing our Prius C with one would save $1200/year in gas costs. And then there are oil change costs that you save and a few others.
A used Bolt is pretty darn cheap
Yeah, I’ve been looking at them, and it’s something like $13k, which is definitely in the reasonable range of prices, especially since I can probably get $5k for my current car.
However, I’m worried about battery issues. People claim it’s fixed, but I’ll be parking mine in my garage and there’s a lot of flammable stuff in there. So I’m a little hesitant. I don’t need to ever fast charge it since I only drive like 200 miles per week (and never more than 100 miles in a day, usually like 50), so trickle charging should be totally fine. If I can confirm that, I might just do the swap. Or maybe I’ll get a Leaf, which is in a similar price range used.
Our gas and electricity costs are pretty low ($3.50/gal and $0.12-0.13/kWh), so even at $13k, the Bolt would still need ~10 years to pay back for itself (and that’s not counting the opportunity cost of investing that money). I’m still tempted based purely on the convenience factor (never needing to go to a gas station again), but it’s not a slam dunk yet. If the car dies, I’ll certainly replace the commuter with an EV though, I would just rather avoid the hassle of listing and selling my current car.
From a purely climate perspective, it’s probably better for me to replace our family car. We get ~20mpg, and hybrids would get 30-40mpg, and a plug-in would get emissions-free for most of our around-town trips. That car is only used for very short trips (<20 miles) or long trips (>200 miles), with almost nothing in-between. But those cars are super expensive right now, so I’m watching the used market to see if I can score a deal.
Or maybe I’ll get a Leaf, which is in a similar price range used.
If you will EVER need to fast charge then the leaf is going to be more annoying because it has CHADeMO and not CCS
Get the bolt unless you’re certain that’ll never be a problem even once, it’s seriously not worth it anymore
Source: longtime happy leaf owner who hates CHADeMO as it cannot be easily converted to CCS like NACS can
I would advise against a Leaf, especially used. Nissan was great at getting a popular, cheap EV out the door but they have completely stagnated since then. The Leaf’s big issue is that the battery is air cooled. That’s fine if you live in Hawai’i where the temperature is in the 70s year round but places that experience heat will see a severe degradation in range relatively quickly. It’s not unheard of fire a 10 year old Leaf to only get maybe a dozen miles of range. There is also the fact that it uses CHAdeMO instead of CCS for fast charge. They have finally started to make adapters but they are $1000 and are not officially supported.
If you are indeed worried about a Bolt battery, you could always park it outside. There is not a catalytic converter for thieves to rip off so being out of a garage is not a big issue in that regard.
I would agree that switching will likely not make a ton of sense for you. Thankfully in my state, they offer a rebate for EVs on top of the federal credit so a used EV for us would pay for itself in about 5 years.
Your math checks out.
Charging a 600 mi battery in 9 minutes would require a charging station that can output somewhere north of 1.2 MW.
We need major upgrades to the electrical grid as well as doubling our electricity generation capacity for charging stations and vehicles like that to be common place.
There are already some charging stations in Germany offering 400kW. Still 16 minutes though. 800kW is just insane. CCS is currently capped at 500kW, so you would need MCS which is planned for trucks.
If you do the math, the common standard plugs simply can’t do the charging rates that would be required here. You’d need a whole new plug design on top of all new chargers.
It’s also silly and unnecessary. We should focus on getting more chargers out there, not chasing a fast charge time goal. If you plan your route out a bit, 20-30 minute charge times every 2-4 hours are fine for the vast majority of people.
https://wumpus-cave.net/post/2024/03/2024-03-30-ten-minute-ev-charging-wont-happen/index.html
According to this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62196 the standard was updated in 2022 to support up to 1500V and 800A. If this can be achieved simultaneously it would be 1.2MW.
Whether it is necessary or realistic is another thing, but seems to be achievable without even changing the plug.
Fucking hell, imagine the requirement of a couple of megawatt substation for fast charging, urban power planners must be shitting themselves.
Replace the gas stations with that stuff and have a charging network distributed around parking areas.
Urban probably isn’t too bad, if it’s a proper city they already have power for the infrastructure of subways, lighting, and large buildings.
Where it’s going to be tough is putting these in the ‘burbs or the large areas of mostly vacant interstate. There’s just no infrastructure for them to build off of, and EV charging infrastructure is already one of the issues holding people back from more widely adopting them.
Many rural areas honestly would not be too bad since power plants are usually out there. Those generally tend to have pretty decent power infrastructure. It might be different in other states though. Here in Washington dams and wind farms tend to be pretty far out of town.
Yeah, just the random added load equivalent to 80-100 houses per car, any time between 5am and 9pm would be enough to send local suburban grids into a spin, especially in summer evenings when there’s peak loading already underway. A lot of infrastructure would need to be beefed up to make it reliable.
We have an EV that charges on 110v current. It’s not fast, but plugged in the previous evening it will be ready to go by morning. Not a huge draw on the grid off household current. Obviously, just like you point out, more EV will increase demand…but charging off 110v overnight isn’t going to be as demanding as a “gas station” for EV that all want fast charge for people that maybe don’t have charging access otherwise.
I imagine there would have to be some sort of organized system to pick charging time slots via the local electricity provider in order to keep the grid stable. EV owners could certainly get an electrical timer or via the EV manufacturer app to set a charging time.
Yeah if you’ve got home charging it’s not a real issue. We use 240v here in Aus so you can pull quite a bit out of domestic outlets before having to get serious and generally overnight charging to top up the day’s commute would be fine.
So it wouldn’t be a fast charger on every street, and you could always enforce limits by time of use pricing to put a dampener on peak loads.
I just wonder if utility planners might get caught with their pants down on this one. Like, could you say 5 years ago chargers might run to 800kW?
I’d say grid planners everywhere are under serious strain. The demands for air conditioning in public and private spaces are getting higher, the number of household electronics is climbing along with data centers constantly consuming ever more amounts of electricity…now we add EV charging to the mix.
Yeah, I’d say they haven’t been able to keep up.
lol, I am picturing buried thorium salt reactors at charging stations in the boonies.
Amazing, now we just need charger infra to be more ubiquitous
That’s the main thing holding EVs back in general, in my opinion. That, and the price of EVs. Batteries will get better with time, chargers will get faster. But if there aren’t enough fast chargers all over the place like petrol stations, then the adoption of EVs will be too slow for prices to drop significantly until ICE vehicles aren’t supposed to be produced anymore.
Also, I hope the electronics industry really gets their shit together in terms of recycling and sustainability.
Now we’re getting there!
now tell me why it isn’t sustainable
Gas-holes will tell you that the rare metals leak poison into dirt.
As if gasoline isnt already doing that.
They aren’t. They’re doing it right and into the air you all will breath and bake in for the rest of your, now short, life, suckers.
Because carrying a 2-ton metal box around you for every single trip you want to do is the least efficient possible way of doing so. Walk places, ride bikes, take trains, minimize car trips and promote carsharing for the occasional trips where cars are actually necessary.
I literally can’t walk to anything, I live in the woods.
56% of humans live in cities, and this is increasing over time. It’s cool that you’re the exception who lives kilometers away from the nearest store (poor planning in your village though), but the reality is that by proper city-planning and good public transit investment, most people wouldn’t even need to have cars at all.
I don’t live in a city, I live outside of one- they don’t block off the land around here and say you can’t live on it. I’m not interested in living in a city- I have a couple of acres, gardens, old oak trees towering all around giving me shade, I’m near a lake where I can go boating, I have space for my camper and garden tools. I’ve lived in apartments and townhouses, and when you live right next to work, then yeah, walking across the street to your job is great, but if you want something more than 1000sqft for your family and dog- you find yourself outside a city.
On the flip though, I can work from home so I drive a lot less than many, and our groceries are delivered so there are efficiencies gained by a single vehicle delivering to multiple homes instead of each making a trip.
And furthermore, I have enough space to put in a large solar array which I’m currently looking into. If I ever get an electric car, I’ll be able to charge completely off grid with green power. All of that is tougher crammed in a high density urban environment where you’re at the mercy of infrastructure out of your control.
Please tell us how environmentally friendly bringing infrastructure like internet, roads, electricity, water or garbage disposal to low-population density areas is, and how resource-efficient single family houses are. Go off living your happiest life, mate, just don’t preach about the sustainability of it when your eco-footprint is twice that of a city dweller.
As advice: for solar panels to charge an EV, you’re gonna need a fuckton of them. An EV battery is easily 50kWh, which means a 10kW solar installation producing full energy for 5 hours (assuming perfect efficiency on conversion). So be ready to buy a lot of panels.
Well I’m on well water, and I live near Amazon data centers so power was already close by at large scale. I have a septic system, so there’s no sewage lines. Internet is fiber, also already here because of Amazon and it runs on common telco lines that have been there 100 years and uses almost no power for transmission. As for solar, whole home solar arrays are common in my area, I could probably fit 30-50 panels on the sun side.
I’m not arguing that it’s more sustainable, just that endless population growth crammed into mega cities isn’t a great solution either- I think smaller communities with some measure of independence is probably more sustainable than city sized archologies with people crammed in coffins- that’s no way to live. With fewer people the slices of pie can be bigger. Cities use an unbelievable amount of concrete for infrastructure which is a huge pollutant and a finite resource due to the limited supply of special sand required.
There’s no easy solution- I’m just saying for many, it’s not as simple as just taking a bike. I feel like reducing heavy industry and global population and making Chinese trash products illegal would have a far greater impact on global sustainability, as those things use orders of magnitude more energy and resources than every country dweller’s cars combined. And don’t get me started on energy hungry crypto and AI farms- they use more power than the bottom 10 countries combined.
Industry has done a great PR campaign making people feel guilty and personally responsible while generating billions of tons of plastic bottles, bags, and packages which are 90% not recyclable regardless of the blue bins. Small changes at industrial scale would have far greater impact- like switching back to glass bottles or waste fiber bags. Not to say we shouldn’t each do our part, but we as individuals carry an unfair share of the blame for problems largely created by unregulated profit driven enterprises.
Well I’m on well water, and I live near Amazon data centers so power was already close by at large scale. I have a septic system, so there’s no sewage lines. Internet is fiber, also already here because of Amazon and it runs on common telco lines that have been there 100 years and uses almost no power for transmission. As for solar, whole home solar arrays are common in my area, I could probably fit 30-50 panels on the sun side.
I’m not arguing that it’s more sustainable, just that endless population growth crammed into mega cities isn’t a great solution either- I think smaller communities with some measure of independence is probably more sustainable than city sized archologies with people crammed in coffins- that’s no way to live. With fewer people the slices of pie can be bigger. Cities use an unbelievable amount of concrete for infrastructure which is a huge pollutant and a finite resource due to the limited supply of special sand required.
There’s no easy solution- I’m just saying for many, it’s not as simple as just taking a bike. I feel like reducing heavy industry and global population and making Chinese trash products illegal would have a far greater impact on global sustainability, as those things use orders of magnitude more energy and resources than every country dweller’s cars combined. And don’t get me started on energy hungry crypto and AI farms- they use more power than the bottom 10 countries combined.
Industry has done a great PR campaign making people feel guilty and personally responsible while generating billions of tons of plastic bottles, bags, and packages which are 90% not recyclable regardless of the blue bins. Small changes at industrial scale would have far greater impact- like switching back to glass bottles or waste fiber bags. Not to say we shouldn’t each do our part, but we as individuals carry an unfair share of the blame for problems largely created by unregulated profit driven enterprises.
you’re the exception.
965 km … so aprox 1000km.
So about 1 megameter.
Wow, 1 megameter for a vehicle weighing 2 megagrams. That’s some serious efficiency
There’s a good chance you are mistaken. It was not specified which type of mile they are referencing.
The only sensible mile to use would be the Scandinavian mile (10.000m). = 6000km range.
Another possibility is the nautical mile (1852m). = 1.111,2km range.
And there are plenty of other “miles” to choose from.
deleted by creator
For the trumpet to affect his height… Did he wear it as a hat?
No. He leans back, and blazes music like a bonfire into the night sky.
Mm!
Hell yeah. Let’s keep going, boys!
The weight matters too. EVs are notoriously heavy. You have to haul around the batteries whether they are full or not.
“However, due to their high production costs, these batteries’ initial application will be limited to the “super premium” EV segment.”
“initial” could very well be the key word here. Same goes with any new technology, including the relatively outdated Chevy Bolt design (which was pretty expensive at launch and is now a dime a dozen)
Solid state batteries are more energy dense, meaning that if all you want is 300 miles of range on a charge (perfectly fine with it’s faster charging), then you can have less battery for the same range. Now how much lighter I’m not sure, but it’s in the right direction!
The weight matters too. EVs are notoriously heavy.
This is a regular argument against EVs but its a weak argument in the real world application in the USA at least.
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The most popular EV by sales in the USA is the Tesla Model Y with a curb weight of about 4200 lbs.
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The most popular vehicle in the USA is (and has been for quite awhile) the Ford F150 Pickup which a curb weight of 4400lbs.
Yes, many of those F150 trucks are used in commercial or heavy duty applications legitimately, However, many are not. The F150 outsold the Tesla model Y by more than 50%. Why is the argument of curb weight only leveled against EVs, the recent addition to the roads, and not giant pickup trucks and SUVs that regularly weigh much more?
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Personally I like small, lightweight cars because they’re fun to drive and somewhat efficient. Obviously the f150 doesn’t light my fire in that regard, but the model Y isn’t exactly a nimble little thing either. Between weight and annoying tech (screens and driver assist mostly), I’m honestly not interested in modern cars at all
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Every day it feels like we’re getting closer to battery revolution. It really makes you wonder how different the world will be once we have these incredible batteries actually working at consumer level.
I waited 4 years for battery technology to get better before bring an EV last year. The “battery revolution”, with all the news being generated weekly for years, is still not here. I don’t give a fuck about theoretical battery range - give me the actual battery in a car, THEN it’s newsworthy. Now it’s all just theoretical, which we consumers can do fuck all about.
Well, Toyota has promised 2026 for their battery tech and hasn’t changed that guidance, so I think there’s a decent chance they’ll stick to that timeline. I don’t know if Samsung is their supplier or if they’re competing on the tech, but if it’s the latter, I expect we’ll see something in the next 2-3 years.
I’m still convinced Toyota is just announcing breakthroughs miracles in battery tech Coming Soon™ because they shit the bed so hard on the first round of EVs. Now they’re trying to discourage people from buying EVs now while they play catch-up.
Well, the good news is, nobody is making an actual solid state battery car, so if they don’t deliver, I’m not out anything. The current set of EVs aren’t good enough to replace our family car (we like road trips, and even 300 miles range is too little), so I’m waiting regardless. I’ll be looking for announcements in the next year or two.
Both of our cars are Toyotas though, because they make really good cars. We have a Sienna for our family car and a Prius for my commuter, and I’m probably going to replace that Prius with an EV if I can find a good deal on something with 150 miles range. The Sienna is getting old (nearly 200k miles), but it’s reliable, so I’m holding off until I can either get a good deal on a hybrid/ICE, or reasonable EVs are released. If that’s Toyota, great, but I’m not buying the first gen of anything regardless.
I’ve found the current gen of EVs is perfect for road tripping with my family. The battery range is perfectly sized for the bladder sizes of my kids. It works really well if you’re road tripping at a casual pace. However I know a lot of people that like to “death march” road trip where they won’t stop for 500 miles at a time - so I admit it’s definitely not for everyone.
Yeah, I have kids, and we can usually get about 300 miles before someone needs a bathroom break. So usually I refill gas (<5 min) while the kids go to the bathroom, and we usually pack enough food with us (sandwiches and whatnot) that we only need to go to a restaurant once on the trip.
An EV could work if fast chargers were as plentiful as gas stations, but in many of the areas we go (I live in Utah and travel to WA, MT, ID, and CA frequently), they’re pretty infrequent. So we’d need to plan stops based on charger availability, not on bladder size, which means an extra recharge or two for the trip. It’s getting better, but every time I look at maps, there are maybe one or two chargers in a 50 mile radius, so if it’s full or out of service, we’d be screwed.
Now, if gas stations started offering EV charging, I’d probably be looking at them today. Gas stations are perfect because they often have fast food, bathrooms, and snacks, all of which are essential for road trips.
As another anecdote, my coworker just bought a Model 3, and he frequently says he can’t reasonably visit places within our state because the charging network sucks. That’s a pretty serious concern for us, since we like camping, which means pretty remote trips.
And that’s the thing. As much as we’ve gotten used to it over the past hundred years, progress is absolutely not automatic.
If people don’t buy the current stuff, it reduces the chance of advancement for that tech. Most things will only get better if people are buying the current versions.
We’ve had solar power tech for 50 years. Solar initiatives under Carter were actually pretty good. You know who killed it, or I expect we’d have solar on most roofs today.
I recently visited Switzerland, and the amount of rooftop solar there was insane.
(Solar is of course closely linked to battery tech.)
I totally agree with your statement, but in the 4 years I waited, nothing has actually happened with the batteries on EVs (except for a bit faster charging on already insane charging times).
we’re getting closer to battery revolution
If big oil doesn’t buy up the patent and squirrel it away.
One important thing to remember is the that battery capacity is unlikely to improve anymore, we should mostly improve charging, lifespan, safety, etc.
I doubt that we will ever see batteries that have much more capacity per weight than what we have now.
That’s completely wrong. Lab research continues and we’re not close to the theoretical limits of energy density yet.
Every day it feels like we’re getting closer to battery revolution.
It’s been “every day” for as long as I can remember. Some new world-changing battery tech is right around the corner, but never manages to appear in consumer vehicles…
feels a bit like fusion power
There may not be a revolutionary discovery, but we are nearing a tipping point where battery makes more sense for most disconnected power storage than anything else.
The cell phone I had 30 years ago had a battery pack that was about as big as my current cell phone and was 500 mAh. My current cell phone has a little battery tucked away in it that stores 4000 mAh, recharges about as fast, and can be recharged more before it loses a significant amount of its capacity. It also costs about 1% per mAh of the price of that battery from 30 years ago.
Just because you haven’t bothered to investigate advances in battery technology doesn’t mean significant advances haven’t occurred.
There may not be a revolutionary discovery, but we are nearing a tipping point where battery makes more sense for most disconnected power storage than anything else.
…what else are you using for “disconnected power storage” than batteries?
The cell phone I had 30 years ago had a battery pack that was about as big as my current cell phone and was 500 mAh.
Please tell me what part of my comment led you to believe I was insinuating battery technology had not improved in the last 30 years…
Just because you haven’t bothered to investigate advances in battery technology doesn’t mean significant advances haven’t occurred.
Please read better.
Fossil fuels are currently the largest disconnected power storage by overall power used. You know, the thing cars use when they aren’t EVs. You may have heard of diesel and gasoline generators, or oil-fueled ships.
As per the previous part of my comment that you quoted, my point was that incremental changes can accumulate to the point where at some point revolutionary changes can occur. We increased capacity and longevity by a factor of 10 over 30 years, have a new technology hitting mainstream, and another that could double power density in the next 5 to 10. Yet you seem skeptical that’s possible, in spite of the decades of advances we already have made.
Fossil fuels are currently the largest disconnected power storage by overall power used.
Fossil fuels do not store “power” at all.
incremental changes can accumulate to the point where at some point revolutionary changes can occur. We increased capacity and longevity by a factor of 10 over 30 years
If it takes place over the course of 30 years, it is not “revolutionary”.
Yet you seem skeptical that’s possible, in spite of the decades of advances we already have made.
I am skeptical because of the decades of advances that have been promised time and time again but have not been made…
I am not remotely skeptical of iterative advancements.
Fossil fuels do not store “power” at all.
Now, if you’re quibbling about the term power vs. energy, I can’t really be bothered with it. If you aren’t, what exactly do you think is the reason we use gasoline in vehicles than because it’s a highly portable source of energy?
if you’re quibbling about the term power vs. energy, I can’t really be bothered with it.
Yeah, I’m getting that impression about you.
Battery tech has still come a long way since say 10 years ago, even though the “next gen” stuff hasn’t made it to scaled production. Looks like this is the beginning of scaled production, though.
Looks like this is the beginning of scaled production, though.
Production is a tiny link in the supply chain.
According to the article they’ve sent them to manufacturers for testing and that’s it.
Even if they were able to make them they’d still be impossibly expensive for decades, as the implications of such a technology would be gargantuan.
Nah, see the battery density graph here. Batteries have made great progress already, and it’s accelerating because suddenly there are trillions of dollars on the line for anyone that can make big strides in battery technology.
Nah, see the battery density graph
Yah, I see your battery density graph and the batteries in question would blow a hole in that chart:
Samsung’s oxide solid-state battery technology boasts an energy density of 500 Wh/kg, nearly double the 270 Wh/kg density of mainstream EV batteries.
That’s without even getting into the charging rates, which are impossible because you can’t even deliver power to the car at that rate, even if it could take it.
suddenly there are trillions of dollars on the line for anyone that can make big strides in battery technology.
What makes you think that’s “sudden”?
There is a
solid statesodium battery factory being built in Japan, I think, and one in America. (Yes, I mixed up my two battery technologies, a common problem in a stagnant field…) But yes, real life isn’t a game, you can’t immediately use new tech as soon as it becomes viable, and factories take time to build. That doesn’t mean that advances haven’t been constantly occurring, just like advances continued to occur with NiMH battery technology a decade after lithium was mainstream. Partly, no doubt, because factories are expensive, they take time to build, and companies like to maximize the profits from their investments.That doesn’t mean that advances haven’t been constantly occurring
No one said they haven’t. Please note the “world changing” part of my comment. I’m not talking about iterative advancements, I’m talking about things like solid-state and sodium batteries. Things we’ve been reading about for decades that are quantum leaps in battery technology.
In the case of the OP, we’re talking about doubling battery density and charging speeds well in excess of what you could actually ever get to the car.
Yah, I see your battery density graph and the batteries in question would blow a hole in that chart, and several charts above it.
I’m not sure if we are looking at the same chart. The chart goes up to 500 Wh/kg, the same as this new Samsung battery as per the original article. It’s may well be the same battery that gives the chart that value, but notice the years prior it gets higher and higher up to that value.
It might be 10 years away from being the mainstream battery but the battery technology that was 10 years away 9 years ago is almost here.
What makes you think that’s “sudden”?
I was meaning how EVs created a consumer market for huge batteries where prior to that the biggest battery in your house might have been a power tool. But you’re right, there was a premium market for emerging battery tech and it increases along a scale like anything else.
It might be 10 years away from being the mainstream battery
Yes, that was my point, thank you.
The difference is this is actually shipping to manufacturers.
Solid state batteries are already being produced at scale. It’s happening.
Where are you seeing that?
The first news I’ve heard is Yoshino power selling solid state power banks. here’s a video covering them.
LOOOOLLOLOL Look at this clown
https://odysee.com/updated-solid-state-batteries-are-really#dd37d5928b5844f2f32dad02307e661d1b89f8bb
…for testing.
True, as far as big leaps go there hasn’t mean anything since the introduction of lithium based batteries to the market.
Until now. This is it and they have production working. Safer than lithium. Longer lasting, quicker charging, should perform fine in extreme cold, more energy dense, and solid state.
The next big thing is finally here.
Until now. This is it and they have production working.
I hope you’re right, but I’ll believe it when I see it.
A giant name like samsung and the auto makers they’ve teamed up with like Toyota aren’t going to bullshit about the batteries being in production. There’s no benefit to doing so. It’s not like they’re trying to raise investment capital.
Samsung is not the “bullshitter”. Samsung did not write this article. Samsung didn’t claim that these will be in cars or anywhere else anytime soon.
Yes they have. Not from this article, though. Same for Toyota. They announced a 2027(likely) solid state battery EV months ago.
As for “samsung didn’t claim this”, they put the battery on display at the trade show in Seoul, and it’s been reported by tons of outlets. Samsung has very clearly announced it.
No they haven’t. Samsung didn’t say they have a 600 mile battery. The author did. Which is nonsense for a variety of reasons, which is exactly my point
They announced a 2027(likely) solid state battery EV months ago.
…likely? Based on what?
they put the battery on display
No one is trying to claim the battery doesn’t exist so I’m not sure what your point is.
I know you’re correct, since there are now solid state batteries on the market which outperform liquid-electrolyte LiPo batteries, but just stating “we’re at the tipping point” without dropping any link as evidence makes your claim very unconvincing.
That guy on Undecided is a bit of a dunce. He never actually checked or tested in any way that the yoshino psu uses real solid state batteries. He just bought it from Amazon and it’s advertised on Amazon as having them.
But they likely aren’t solid state batteries in that psu he bought. He even admitted as much in a podcast just last week.
Other people have done teardowns on those yoshino batteries and have apparently found that they are not solid state. They still contain a liquid.
Here. I think he talks about it somewhere around 25 minutes in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aciA1dKz5iE
So we’re still in a limbo period with nothing actually on the market.
Battery tech is constantly having huge breakthroughs. They are just come in small steps.
I mean a smart phone is literally a battery powered computer. It’s absolutely astounding compared to what we had 10/20 years ago.
Battery tech is constantly having huge breakthroughs. They are just come in small steps.
My guy, those are opposite things…
Depends on how you define “constant”. Battery prices have been falling year over year, no thanks to technological improvements.
If we’re referring explicitly to Academia and R&D, then OP is correct. You’re main point is that these huge breakthroughs haven’t affected the market, but OP isn’t arguing that.
You’re both talking past each other.
Depends on how you define “constant”.
No it doesn’t? Because there have been none. There have been steady and iterative advancements.
OP is correct
When was OP involved in this conversation?
Not really. They have massive breakthroughs that increase capacity and charging hugely.
People just seem to expect some world changing development constantly.
Yes, really…
touché
I don’t know how many ways I can explain that 2 obviously contradictory statements are contradictory.
Only thing I’m upset with is that we get more battery capacity, but not longer battery time. I want to clock my phone down to save power, but that’s not allowed.
It’s absolutely allowed.
It’s not as good as previous versions but I am running stock android and I have wifi power saving and phone (background) power saving modes available. I just checked and the estimate of time until zero percent battery goes from 22 hours to 28 hours with the node that limits backup processes, and that is with 59% on the battery.
There was a power save mode on my old phone that made everything grey screen and stuff that was way better. I think I enabled it for a camping trip once and used like 20% battery in 3 days.
Most phones have some sort of “Ultra power saving” mode that gives a lot of battery life.
I always use the power saving mode, however my experience is that the battery time is almost the same irregardless of battery capacity (comparing arbitrarily över the years)
Yeah the more power phones have available the more manufacturers use.
It’s why I miss replaceable batteries.
That made me think of the fairly low res picture of the menu screen from Mario Bros on the NES with the caption "this one image takes up more memory than the entirety of the Mario Bros game code.
Good lord…I remember getting a 1GB HDD and thinking “welp, never gonna use that up” then a few years later installing Diablo2 and seeing it was 1.1gb…
Can you imagine not having the constant traffic noise played into your ears like tinnitus, being able to maybe actually breathe the oxygen nature provides. That’s probably gonna be what it will be like. But still, ev are just a stop gap, more privately owned cars isn’t the solution in my humble opinion, it is a start towards it.
The tire noise EVs make is about the same as an ICE car at about 50 kph (30 mph) so it doesn’t make much difference on busy roads. It does make a huge difference in slow traffic.
It’s not tire noise that bothers me, it’s the folks who seem to think that the rest of us will think they’re cool for being able to hear their engine roaring down the road from a quarter mile away.
They’ll switch to very loud music unfortunately.
I would rather hear loud music than ear-piercing motor noise.
Totally with you, but tire dust is one of the major pollution particles from cars, maybe even the worst AFAIK. That, sadly will not go away but it is still leagues more desireable to have everything on electric than fossil fuel. Can’t have perfect stop good enough.
Yep, tire pollution is even worse with EVs due to their weight. But overall it’s still much better as you said.
This really only applies to oversized electric trucks and SUVs, due to their low efficiency and associated need for massive batteries, not EVs in general. Mine weighs the same as a comparable sedan.
Unfortunately EVs are mostly comprised of oversized SUVs but not exclusively.
If you’re concerned about tire pollution, you can switch any vehicle to a harder rubber compound, at the expense of grip and safety.
It would help if cars went back to a reasonable size and not the absurdly large monstrosities that dominate the market today.
It’s even hard to find an EV sedan. There are like 3 models under $70k. Everyone wants to make SUVs instead.
That’s the real kicker. Gets especially hard if you don’t want a Tesla.
Many of the conservatives who cite heaviness of EVs as a problem didn’t say shit as ICE cars got heavier and they bought F150s to go to Walmart.
Yep, I’m all for it. However, they would be still heavier compared to equivalents ICEs.
There’s no reason to think that will last. The kwh/kg of batteries improves by 5-8% per year, and we’ve been in the higher end of that range the last few years. Meanwhile, EVs are about 30% heavier. It will take a few years of improvement to make up that gap, but there’s every reason to expect this trend to continue.
Also, it takes a few years for new batteries to find their way into existing models. 1.08^4 = 1.36, which means improvements in batteries since 2020 could have made up this gap already.
About noise, above 30km/h electric cars are as noisy as gas powered one.
It’s better but not the panacea either.
Solution: 30km/h speed limit in cities, which is a good idea anyway for safety reasons.
Yes, it’s better for safety and health reason.
Plus 30km/h is in the speed range of bikes, so it become much more accessible to bike around in the city and more people start to do it.
It’s 30mph not kph. City streets should be limited to 20mph anyway.
The traffic noise will stay the same, from tires, honking and some fake engine noise they’ll mandate for pedestrian safety.
Do yourself a favor and spend some time in an area without cars. It’s amazing what it does to your mental health.
They’re coming off a pilot production line and have shipped to vehicle manufacturers to see if they want to incorporate these into upcoming models.
Problem will be the price for the first run of this tech. They’re targeting “ultra premium” vehicles until they can scale and optimize manufacturing.
The market will segment away from the current tech anyway. CATL Sodium-ion with comparatively low densities but also extremely low prices per kWh will likely win the low-end market and the market for stationary solutions. This is just due to the much lower resource costs. The high-end will be up for things like this battery by Samsung (or other comparable pilot products). The current technology will likely be in a weird middle spot.
And those cheaper batteries may not be as compromising as people think. In terms of kwh/kg, the sodium-ion batteries coming on the market now are about where lithium poly batteries were about 4 years ago. It takes a few years before new batteries make their way into EVs, which means EVs being purchased right now have batteries with a similar kwh/kg of the new sodium-ion batteries. Those batteries are around 30% cheaper and don’t have the same level of fire hazards as some lithium chemistries.
So if EVs on the market today have adequate range for your use, you’ll probably be just fine with a future sodium-ion EV.
There won’t be many charging stations able to output that kind of wattage tho
This is the real next step, every other battery hasn’t made it to production, but if they’re sending out working EV batteries to EV manufacturers and have production line running then it’s finally real.
And as soon as Korea starts mass producing long range, quick charge solid state batteries, the factories in China are going to start mass-producing them as well.
Regardless of what it means politically, this is fantastic news, I didn’t know they were actually producing them beyond prototype stage into commercial production.
Heellll yeah.
Yeah I was excited by https://www.amazon.com/Yoshino-Solid-State-B4000-SST-Generator/dp/B0CPPKFXP3 and although available a bit niche but it ramping into production where its going to be high volume. Finally a battery tech that has made it to market.
I don’t trust it. Off brand looking name. Has the high price, but then their upcharge for a few cheap looking solar panels is like a ridiculous $1400.
thats fine but I found out about it from a guys youtube where he ordered one and put it to the test. the guys channel has mostly been about his construction of a super efficient house with batteries and solar and such so I trust it exists as a product. not saying to anyone to buy it but was just showing they exist and are being sold. its not a wait and see battery technology anymore.
I have no doubts it exists as a product. I have doubts about its battery. I’d like a big transportable battery backup device, but I wouldn’t want to spend over $1,000 on such a thing if they battery is bad after 10 years. I can buy a gas generator for $500 and it will work fine for over 20 years without an issue. The battery just makes it much more convenient since there’s no worry of running out of gas and it’s silent and runs indoors.
So its like the first thing out from this tech and the point of this tech is longer lasting batteries. Well and lighter. Anyway, again, the point is the tech is here.
The tech is here. I don’t believe that it’s in that psu.
Are you talking about Matt Ferrel from Undecided?
Yeah…he doesn’t know a lot about batteries, really. He’s also doubled back after having some battery teardown reports shown to him and now says it doesn’t seem likely yoshino is using a real solid state battery.
So no. It isn’t likely “yoshino” gets to be the first to market with a real solid state battery in their product.
Oh yea, I hadn’t heard of that, good share.
That’s very cool
I bet the Europeans and Americans already work on imposing tariffs.
Won’t matter much; Chinese EVs are so inexpensively made, especially with subsidies, while exceeding European and American auto safety standards that tariffs for the last five years haven’t stopped them expanding outside of Asia.
In addition, EVs are so much cheaper to produce, run and maintain for auto companies that tariffs aren’t going to make much of a difference stemming the continued EV manufacturing explosion.
Capacity and range will just keep going up, any tariffs have so far been and will be footnotes in EV story rather than any sort of relevant market mechanism
Chinese EV sounds terrifying. I am sure the specific cars they sent for safety testing were well made and passed just fine, but I wouldn’t get into their production run vehicles.
Nah, these are the exact standards US/euro cars are tested by, tested annually from regular production, not specially chosen cars.
Besides, it isn’t like American or European companies didn’t make production line cars that literally blew up if they rear-ended someone.
So far the manufacturing of exported Chinese EVs is doing very well, and each product is tested upon import anyway to make sure it conforms to the regulations of that country.
Tanking a potential market like this for the Chinese doesn’t make any sense right now, at least outside of their country it makes the most corporate and political sense to do what they’re doing and exceed European and American auto safety standards.
You should be more concerned about privacy invasion from the smart tech rather than the physical safety of the vehicles.
Who do you think manufactures basically everything at this point? Even frickin food is being imported from China.
That being said I’d love for American competition, heck I’d just like the Elio I always wanted if it wasn’t for fricking Hummer. And Teslas have been built like garbage for the past couple years now.
It being manufactured in China does not make it a quality issue unless the profit seeking is maxed out. Otherwise it just makes it like everything else being made over there which is it’s own problem.
My point is the the EU ans US are shooting themselves in the foot in a big way with these idiotic tariffs. The Chinese will just clean up in all other markets and if they retaliate, the EU will lose their most important export market, which is China.
I think the US is hoping to buy itself some time while their EV manufacturing catches up, but they aren’t being practical about the limited effect of these tariffs and aren’t making the necessary domestic investments so far to compete with the level of manufacture the Chinese are at and the level the Japanese and a few other countries will be at in 5 years.
The market is still going to end up with safe, affordable EVs sooner than anyone thought, so I can’t get too worked up about the US not jumping into the race.
If they don’t want to catch up, then they get left behind.
They let others manufacture their TVs, computers, and toilet paper, it’s not unlikely they’ll let their national auto industry die as well.
On Korean products?
Exactly. Our government doesn’t hate foreign EVs, they just hate China. That’s really it.
I mean it is just economic warfare. China substitutes their EV producers to undercut competing countries. They respond with tarrifs. That is business as usual since global trade exists.
It really shouldn’t be though. I believe in free trade, and tariffs ain’t it.
The tariffs are to compensate for the Chinese government subsidizing production.
Are they? Or is it protectionism?
I’d like to see some actual numbers here, because 100% tariffs seems to be more than just the subsidies, but also includes labor cost disparity.
Completely free trade works as well as unregulated capitalism in that it’s terrible for the consumers. You’ll always end up with a monopoly.
I don’t think that’s true. There are other mechanisms besides tariffs and direct regulations that can help regulate markets, depending on what you’re looking for. For example:
- carbon taxes - charge companies for the cost of removing the carbon they emit; this would look like a tariff for imported goods, but they can reduce the tax by proving the carbon they emit is lower
- anti-trust - break up companies that break the law
- remove certain corporate protections - jail execs, increase liability (e.g. protect retirement assets and primary house, but not investments), etc
- more consistent and active enforcement of the laws we do have
I’m not saying we should flip the switch overnight to free trade, I’m saying we should be moving that direction. The only case I can see for tariffs is to reverse government subsidies. If we can prove China subsidizes EVs by X%, I’m fine with a matching tariff to level the playing field. However, if they’re merely able to produce them cheaper because labor there is cheaper, a tariff is merely protectionism and therefore illegitimate, and we should instead compete with automation or quality.
All I see in the thumbnail is delicious, forbidden makizushi
If a product lasts, it will be subscription based
The idea of ownership is being destroyed
Only because things are too expensive for plebes to buy outright! Mortgages are basically subscriptions too. Or “layaway” at least.
Thanks to monthly payments for everything, you can have whatever TV you want!
Honestly, if a product last forever I wouldn’t mind it on a subscription model. The company needs to make money in order to, at the minimum, continue supporting the product.
Then comes the costs of support staff, R&D for future product developments, etc etc.
That price should not include massive yearly bonuses for the top execs.
It’s a battery. You put it in the car, and it powers it. How much support does the manufacturer need to provide that can’t be baked into the initial cost?
gestures around Products as a service in general isn’t needed, but it’s done anyways. Single player games don’t need to be always-online and subscription-based. Same with movies. Same with cars. But in the world we live in, everything is becoming X-as-a-service. In this case, it wouldn’t surprise me a bit if they purposely built in a chip that would disable or otherwise limit the battery unless the
purchaserclient continued paying the subscription fee.
No, if a product exists, it will be subscription based. That seems to be where we’re at these days…
Shit, if they run windows on whatever car uses these it could be a real adventure…will it crash when you lose wifi, or just explode randomly? ANYONES GUESS!
The Ford Fukit, new EV for $1000, just sign these waivers and sign up for this power steering subscription. The braking fee will be automatically applied per month based on use. GOOD LUCK!
Let me know when I can buy it.
In the meantime we can get a portable solid state power station https://yoshinopower.com/
If you own an EV factory you can:
initial batches have already been delivered to EV manufacturers for testing.
Unfortunately, I do not
Yeah. I’ve seen too many battery technologies die in a lab. I need to see it to believe it.
I mean that particular version of it or any solid state tech because https://www.amazon.com/Yoshino-Solid-State-B4000-SST-Generator/dp/B0CPPKFXP3
These aren’t in a lab. They’re being manufactured right now.
There’s a toxic positivity in battery tech news. So many things only end up being practical in a lab, but the news headlines sensationalizes every single one. Its led people to believe that no advancements are coming. But the truth is that batteries improve 5-8% in kwh/kg per year, and that compounds over time to some real gains.
Yeah I often drive over 1000 miles in a day, sometimes as much as 1600+ so this is the only way I’d consider electric. Although it sounds like at a high speed supercharger it would be more expensive than regular gasoline. At least there’s progress.
If you average 60 miles per hour, then 1000 miles would take you 16 hours. There is not way you are regularly doing that. It’s not taking into account gassing up, breaks to get food.
This is totally possible. Maybe not for 1600 miles but 1000 for sure. I do this for 500-800 miles regularly. Sometimes 1000+. Speed limit is 70mph on most US highways and the unspoken agreement is you can go 8 or 9 over and not get pulled over. In metropolitan areas you can typically go even faster on the beltway, almost everyone does. You train yourself not to need to piss as often, so you piss while you gas up. You don’t eat until your drive is done.
“I came to the technology community and was surprised when they started talking about things that aren’t in production.”
How much is that in loading cable diameter?
Can’t we get Nokia to make an EV battery instead?
