As a colored dude, it’s hard to explain. I’ve even had white folks say, “Nah man it’s not like that.”
We’re attracting the good trolls, I’m sorry that I have to lock it.
As a white guy, I’d like to think it’s not like that. I’d like to think that we left racism and all this bullshit in the past and any job goes to the best qualified applicant regardless of race, gender, or sexual preferences.
While I would like that to be true, I know that isn’t the world we live in.
As a white guy, it is like that. In the same way it is in female run office spaces. But white guy culture is definitely the most toxic. They feel unashamedly deserving when they find good old boys clubs.
Having worked in a sexist office, it sucks, having worked for good old boys, it sucks. Not being able to call people out on their shit fucking sucks.
female run office spaces
The worst places I have worked at had female leadership and majority women employees. The gossip and bullying was off the scale. Older ladies harassing young men was a daily occurrence and laughed at.
The old hags in the fucking HR department at one place I worked were the most racist sexist pieces of shit I have ever had the displeasure of being within earshot of.
Any group is capable of making a workplace toxic.
Reminds me of this: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1168182/Catfights-handbags-tears-toilets-When-producer-launched-women-TV-company-thought-shed-kissed-goodbye-conflict-.html
It’s the DailyMail, so take it with a wheelbarrow of salt, but it’s what came to mind.
Women being assholes to men has become deeply ingrained in American culture.
Men dumb, women smart is something many men agree with while claiming to be alpha. It’s quite silly and has resulted in a form a toxicity that remains poorly defined but palpable once you’re aware of it…
I think it’s just that people being assholes to each other has become deeply ingrained in American culture. It’s become totally acceptable to dehumanize other people for trivial reasons, on both the right and the left.
Removed by mod
DEI is state approved racism designed to replace non approved racism.
You can believe one is worse than the other.
I believe both are shit.
What’s your answer to this then?
Free education and healthcare for everyone, regardless of background, ethnicity and gender.
And how do we do that?
Equality and equity are not the same thing, systemic issues are baked into our laws and policies. Mostly geared at the lower socioeconomic status members of society.
Which tend to be minority members due to the very same systemic issues.
Some people need a different sized ladder to get to the same position.
Edit: an extra word
Progressive taxation.
That would be awesome but it doesn’t address the issue unless you want to pretend lack of education and healthcare are the major barries holding women and minorities back in the workforce.
Women and minorities do not have the same access to education and healthcare.
I will admit that it is not the immediate band aid on the cancerous seeping wound DEI is.
It’s something that will take time.
They don’t have the same access to most shit white men do, that’s why things like DEI exist.
it can’t confront the root causes and still operate under capitalism.
DEI is just as useful as Unions at getting people a fair deal and just as useless at fixing the reason for their existence.
That’s great.
Now do equal opportunities for employment.
Damn, bet nobody was expecting this reply!
I agree completely.
Because it’s bullshit. It’s saying these disenfranchised people need help to better themselves and ignores the systems in place that work directly against them achieving success.
It also has nothing to do with DEI, which is generally about workplace culture and hiring practices.
It seems a lot of people are confusing DEI for affirmative action.
I think, “state approved racism” is the best definition. God forbid to be a person from Eastern Europe: even though you have a background akin to middle East (mostly democracy and wealth-wise), you’ll get treated as a fucking King Charles in US because of your skin color. Check my privelege? I didn’t have any to begin with!
I mean given the USA’s history with black slavery, it’s not exactly surprising their focus is on black people specifically.
Unfortunately, Europe doesn’t do much better in that area, although it should know better. Hearing Germans talk about how they have to support Israel then turn around to talk shit about Poland getting money from them is infuriating.
wtf do you think DEI is?? have you never sat through a training? it’s the most boring thing ever
Ok cracker.
It isn’t about race. It’s about making sure that all perspectives are taken into account when making a decision. That’s it. The think tanks against it are against having rules put upon them. Removing DEI is the same as stripping out market regulation.
DEI is literally oversight to ensure that there ISNT racism . For example, it includes:
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Outreach programs to talk to people in underrepresented communities to tell them that opportunities exist
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Avoiding biased language and assumptions in the hiring process that would negatively impact people of certain demographics
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Hiring authorities that prevent bias against the disabled and veterans
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Audits and data to see if an organization has decided to just be racist and reject non-white applicants
Your argument is, we should remove people’s protections because if we taught everyone better they wouldnt be discriminatory.
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DEI also includes protecting people with disabilities, and veterans from getting skipped over in the hiring process. Those have nothing to do with race. Do veterans deserve to get shit canned too?
The honest take on DEI (which I think is total horse shit) is racially discriminating “the other way” to make up for the past.
One big part about these discussions is some people say that racism has power as a component, i.e. black people can’t be racist. This take is what enables them to sit in a committee and say “we have two equally qualified candidates, so let’s give the job to the black one” and say that with a straight face without feeling like they racially discriminated, even though the DEFINITION of racial discrimination is making a decision based solely on race.
In the very strictest sense, not exactly. If you looked at resumes with all indicators of race and gender removed, then you would probably see that the people with the highest amount of merit were white men.
…But that’s only half of the story.
The issue is that, broadly speaking, white men will have had more advantages growing up that allowed them to have that merit. It’s no indicator of potential. If you get a head start on the race, then sure, you’re much more likely to end up winning, not because you’re inherently faster, but because you got an advantage. DEI is part of an attempt to find the people who have the potential to be the best, no just the people that are the best right now.
The issue is, in practically, resumes don’t have all indicators of race or gender removed.
There have been several studies that suggest that the name on the resume is enough of an indicator of race and gender to let bias creep in. Even on otherwise identical resumes. I’m not sure if we’re going to remove names from resumes any time soon.
This isn’t even true though. Hiring is done by people who have implicit biases and subconscious preferences. When a hiring committee has no diversity, the people hired tend to be less diverse than the average.
The impact of centuries of slavery, segregation, and unequal treatment doesn’t disappear quickly. Even if the root causes were completely resolved (and they are not), the consequences reverberate for a long time. We cannot forget that much of our life is a result of where we start, and it was the same for our parents, and their parents.
if you think white people are bad, you should see south and east Asians
I know that sociology is an elective in a lot of US colleges, and I thoughr more people would haveI taken it. It pretty straightforwardly explained that every aspect we hold inevitably drives our social interactions and life experience whether we like to or not. From what I’ve gathered from my friend’s experiences and the attitutes I’ve seen onlone, the sentiment of “why does it matter to be X” is very much prevelant, and being on the receiving end of unknowing racism really does hurt.
But at the same time, understanding that point also means understanding that people who do not have your traits may not be able to fathom these sorts of experiences (though experience in general is hard to transfer) which results in a kind of dismissal. I’m not saying to forgive, but I understand, and it’ll be all I think about as I help educate (and/or bulldoze disrespectful) people.
Many people beed tk realize the reality that a lot of the interactions we are seeing on mainstream social media platforms especially x/ twitter whatever the fuck its called now, is heavily manipulated by imperial actors such as the company team Jorge which is a mossad run bot farm out of israel that for a price (or even for free depending on the cause, floods platforms with fake engagement meant to make conservatism Look more popular than it truly is to manufacture consent and confuse/ wear down people attempting to dialogue and potentially even convince uninformed people consuming this state propaganda to support fascism/ conservatism.
She still believes that conservatives argue in good faith?
They know.
People denied COVID was real whilst gargling their own lungs. What the fuck would it take to convince you these assholes aren’t secretly well-informed?
Meant the people doing it
Surprisingly, they don’t. Well, the ones who enact / reject these policies do, but the layman doesn’t. It’s incredibly frustrating to have friends and co-workers who reject the explanation for why DEI matters and is important
Sorry for my ignorance, but what does DEI stand for?
Diversity, equity, and Irrigation
Irrigation?
Just kidding, it’s inclusion/inclusivity 😁
Deacidification, emaciation, irrigation
No need to apologize. Diversity, equity and inclusion. It’s the principle that having more representation is a good thing. The Trump administration is against it because they claim it takes opportunities away from straight white men.
i mean it does and that’s a good thing, we’ve seen what happens when we leave it up to the employer.
nepotism hires as far as the eye can see.
People lie about it in my experience. I work in government and in education. I’ve received our “DEI” training. I’m in the very heart of it, and all I’ve seen is that it’s the exact thing that the people who complain about it say (sometimes) that they want instead. They (probably say but don’t necessarily mean) that we should hire based on merit and not race. Well guess what? My dei training is watching a video where: some boss says "I don’t want to hire Ahmed ", his subordinate says “but he’s the best candidate” and his boss says “yeah but he’s Indian” freeze frame, question on what you should do, play video saying to hire him if he’s the most qualified guy.
Maybe your experience is different, but I’m in an organization that is what gets pointed to the hardest as “the problem” by these people, and I have seen what they describe. Maybe it’s different for HR, but are you in our HR department, or have you just “heard about it”
But the ascent is something I’ve literally heard mentioned by white owners. When they hired their first non-white employee they made a point of mentioning how easy he was to understand.
It’s not always about racism. I preferred hiring people that I knew were good workers or were referred to me by people I trusted to have good judgement over someone who was maybe better on paper. An unfortunate side effect of that is my social circle early in my career was mostly other white people but I never rejected or thought less of someone because of their race. It was just that the places I worked always made it a pain in the ass to reopen a position when someone quit or was fired and I couldn’t afford to gamble on an unknown. If no one was referred to me then whoever I hired was based off qualifications and how they interviewed. As I got older and met more people of different backgrounds those recommendations became more diverse.
All that being said DEI policies do solve the problem (other than the having to hire an unknown that would be hard to replace if they don’t work out). It would be better for people to expand their social circle and meet more people on their own but I don’t know how you would enforce that.
I preferred hiring people that I knew were good workers or were referred to me by people I trusted to have good judgement over someone who was maybe better on paper.
An unfortunate side effect of that is my social circle early in my career was mostly other white people.
Right, and your statement proves that individual racism isn’t required for oppresion to exist, cuz you’re pretty much defining systemic racism. Many white people don’t know many POC because of deliberate, decades-long systemic segregation practices (e.g red-lining) that push us towards race-defined classes.
Yeah, agreed. That’s what I was trying to get at with the last part of my comment. As time went on my circle widened and I got to know more diverse people the candidates getting recommended to me became more diverse. DEI, even the boogeyman version people like to complain about makes that happen much faster rather than organically.
Diversity
Equity
InclusionIt’s not “woke”, no matter how hard they try to convince you of it! Diversity: Okay, yeah. If you’re some close-minded person who’s stayed in the same small town your whole life you might fear people who are different and not understand them. Literally part of what these initiatives are trying to improve, but whatever. However, the other two are basically just about fairness and making sure everyone has the chance to thrive! Nothing to fear there! Who could possibly be against that!?
To answer the last sentence: literally Nazis
I’m in a red area and most of the pushback I hear is about equity. They’re all for equality/equal opportunities but don’t support guaranteeing equal outcomes. Whatever that means. I’m just trying to answer your question from the end of your comment because I’ve heard people say that.
Sounds like those folks don’t actually know what the word equity means.
Progress threatens the profoundly mediocre.
I mean the very simple answer they’ll have to any point you make is “it’s a lie told by <opposition> to get <what they want> unfairly and/or illegally.”
Which is why earnest discussion is so difficult. Neither side can really trust that the other side to use words that match intent. I, for sure, don’t trust anything a Right-leaning pundit says about their reasons for legislative positions.
Just wait until Silicon Valley Google coders are all Indian foreign born making 35K/year living on the Google campus. DEI works both ways.
This misses the point entirely.
DEI is about finding the best candidate for the job, and paying them fair wages.
What you’re describing is literally anti-DEI. Musk and Trump have both been open about using the H-1B visa program to find foreign workers who will work cheaply, and they do it so that they don’t have to pay American workers a fair amount.
Musk and Trump have both been open about using the H-1B visa program to find foreign workers who will work cheaply, and they do it so that they don’t have to pay American workers a fair amount.
That’s exactly what I’m saying
My mistake. I thought you were arguing the other way.
DEI is about finding the best candidate for the job, and paying them fair wages.
No it isn’t. Its about finding the best PR pitch for the university you’re recruiting in. Since American universities are going to shit, tech companies are moving abroad to hire cheaper (and often, frankly, better) developers overseas.
This creates a knock-on effect as well, since hiring is often part of a traditional march out to a select set of college campuses or by referral from existing employees. As Google/Meta/Amazon staff up with more and more East Indian workers, the networking effect sets in and future hiring fixates on the same places the last crop of hires came from.
The DEI line is just whitewashing for H1-B programs the tech sector already embraced. Now that its no longer in vogue, we’re “Getting rid of DEI” to keep doing the H1-B programs that tech has embraced. Its all post-hoc PR rationalization.
Thats the thing- they’re describing what will happen when DEI programs are dismantled.
This is the direction Google was heading anyway. More H1-B visas. More precarious employment for developers. More downward pressure on wages. Longer hours. Shittier living conditions. Eat the Bugs. Live in the Pod. Then spend your free time telling people to Like, Subscribe, and Share your 10 Neat Tricks on how they can make it all the way to the “coding goon for a defunct software company” proletariat high water mark.
The presence or absence of DEI was always just window dressing for shit these companies wanted to do anyway. DEI never really worked save as a means of shoving off the then-current administration’s interrogation of Silicon Valley business practice. Now that the old Bidencrats are gone and the new Trumpocrats are in, its time to say “Actually all the Vivek Ramaswamy clones we’re importing are part of the MAGA vision and they always have been”.
