I have the feeling that over the past years, we’ve started seeing more TV shows that are either sympathetic towards Hell and Satan, or somewhat negative towards Heaven. I just watched “Hazbin Hotel” today, which isn’t too theological, but clearly is fairly negative towards Heaven.
In “The Good Place”,
Spoilers for The Good Place
the people in The Bad Place end up pushing to improve the whole system, whereas The Good Place is happy to spend hundreds of year not letting people in.
“Little Demon” has Satan as a main character, and he’s more or less sympathetic.
“Ugly Americans” shows demons and Satan as relatively normal, and Hell doesn’t seem too bad.
I only watched the first episode of “Lucifer”, but it’s also more or less sympathetic towards Lucifer.
I have a few more examples (Billy Joel: “I’d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints”, or the very funny German “Ein Münchner im Himmel”, where Heaven is portrayed as fantastically boring), but I won’t list them all here.
My question is: how modern is this? I’ve heard of “Paradise Lost”, and I’ve heard that it portrays Satan somewhat sympathetically, though I found it very difficult to read. And the idea of the snake in the Garden of Eden as having given free will and wisdom to humanity can’t be that modern of a thought, even if it would have been heretical.
Is this something that’s happened in the last 10 years? Are there older examples? Does anyone have a good source I could read?
Note that I don’t claim Satan is always portrayed positively, or Heaven always negatively :).
This is an element of my novel series’ setting. I’m not trying to advertise it, but if you want more details, and how to access my so far only published book, DM me. I will warn you that only after publishing 1st edition did I realize how important accessibility is. The subject matter is confusing without my old writing style already. The only people who finished it are writers who knew to move on if they didn’t understand something, while my relatives gave up after the first page.
The way I interpreted demons or devils is based on Islamic myths. “Jinn” or “spirit” is the term I use for all such creatures. “Demons” or “devils” are those antagonized by angels, or are spirits that actively oppose them. According to the myth, humans, jinm, and other intelligent creatures that supposedly lived on earth, all have free will, while angels do not. I don’t see my demons as a manifestation of evil, but people with flaws. Angels, however, I’ve discovered are evil themselves, but believe their collective decisions are completely justifiable. They only appear as good cause they’re overall very good at PR and propaganda.
As for stuff outside of my work, I’ve been told Lord of Light has a similar vibe to my book. God’s Demon is a book about demons aka fallen angels going to war in hell. I didn’t entirely like kt though and did not read the sequel. I found some of its ideas interesting enough to finjsh the first book at least.
I’ll reply to this if I think of more. I have one or two artbooks in mind, but I don’t remember their names.
Milton’s Paradise Lost doesn’t paint Hell as pleasant, but Satan is absolutely the protagonist of the story. That’s 1667.
Mark Twain had some interesting ideas about Heaven, Hell, and Satan.
“But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most?”
I went to a religious school and after learning the whole fallen angel backstory I used to pray for him, didn’t know until learning of that quote that Im not the only one. I later learned from a smarter religious teacher that the devil is not canonical, at least not in the way they’re portrayed today. You can thank Dantes Inferno for modern devil characterization.
I remember reading an old fantasy set in Hell. The joke was that when souls come to Hell they bring their expectations with them. The older demons are sick of all the changes the new dead people bring with them.
I’ve noticed this in video games too. For example, in Monster Train you fight as the champions of hell to save what’s left of your home against the forces of light.
I think it is absolutely a reaction to more people becoming non-religious. There is much more in the world that is morally ambiguous than the Bible alone would lead people to believe. Things like my example here: hell frozen over with Satan stuck in an endless dopamine hit cycle, struggling with depression is just one of many ways we have “humanized” Lucifer.
I think, especially, in a world ruled by corruption, that people no longer have faith that those in charge actually have their best interests in mind. You question whether Lucifer was kicked out of heaven for pointing out similar issues with heavenly society. Is he truly the villain in the story? He kills far fewer in Biblical history than God does.
Although God generally kills people as a punishment for evil which was inspired by the devil. Like raping each other.
The idea of Satan as the embodiment of evil is arguably an early medieval borrowing from Zoroastrianism. In the Book of Job he works in conjunction with God as a tester of souls, and his roles in the garden of Eden and the temptation of Jesus aren’t inconsistent with that. And a lot of the popular folklore associated with him originates from morally-ambiguous trickster figures from other traditions that were absorbed into Christianity.
I would even argue that there is actually a distinction to be drawn from the old world ideas of good and evil, and the modern ideas which have almost become “good vs nuance.” No ancient religion goes as far as modern Christianity in terms of condemning people for mere non belief. This has led to a rise in literary themes around the idea that such moral absolutism is itself a form of evil, and that to the extent it implies demons are merely the stewards of nuance, that they must be more sympathetic than God.
The Epistle to the Romans and other Pauline epistles do seem to show that non-believers do generally go to hell.
Right but the classic Catholic interpretation of damnation is that there is a huge layer of purgatory between “hell” and “eternal torture” for those who are not wicked. It is only fairly recently that we’ve had this “straight to pitchforks and fire” concept of hell.
No, it’s the opposite. Purgatory is a new thing. It’s not mentioned in the Bible at all and only really came up in the last 1000 years. Not even the Eastern Orthodox believe in purgatory.
It should also be noted that the Gnostic scriptures, an alternate version of early Christianity, doesn’t actually mention Satan at all.
That’s because he’s the fucking Demiurge in Gnosticism you armchair theist
Funnily enough, no, that’s what we call God. Old Testament God is an evil fuckhead in Gnosticism because he’s a fraud.
Possibly. A lot of modern scholars are revisiting what they think Gnostics believe and doing weird things like “believing them when they write what they believe”
The Gnostics associated the Old Testament Jehovah with the Platonic concept of the Demiurge—an imperfect or misguided lesser deity who created the material world but botched it up and included evil as an unintended consequence—as opposed to the New Testament “God” who was the Platonic principle of transcendent Goodness or Unity. So the Gnostics didn’t need a separate Satan, since Jehovah was already covering that role.
and his roles in the garden of Eden
Not to mention that the idea of the snake being Satan is a more modern interpretation, for a good while the snake was just a snake.
This is cobbled together from a potentially sketchy memory, but doesn’t Satan technically mean accuser? Like his whole role was to tell a whole bunch of goody goody saints in heaven what a piece of crap you are so that they would have something to compare and contrast the goodness that they see in everyone with?
But also going back to opie’s original question, I do remember that one of the reasons for so many Kurdish massacres is that the Kurds have a belief that Satan after the fall fell to Earth and cried such tears that they put out the flames of God’s wrath.
And so they occasionally have ceremonies where they pray on behalf of Satan that God would forgive him in hopes that if God can forgive Satan then God can forgive them for their sins as well.
The reason they are massacred is because the other people in the area have equated that concept with devil worship and so they are attempting to get holy +1 damage to their attacks buy first killing a bunch of devil worshipers and accruing the benefits of executing the wrath of God against sinners.
Samael is the accuser.
I do remember that one of the reasons for so many Kurdish massacres is that the Kurds have a belief that Satan after the fall fell to Earth and cried such tears that they put out the flames of God’s wrath.
You’re probably thinking of the Yazidis—a group that lives in Kurdistan and speaks Kurdish but is distinct from the Kurds proper (who are mostly Sunni Muslims). The Yazidis have a very syncretistic religion drawing on elements of practically everything that ever existed in the region—including religions that were seen as heretical/satanic by subsequent ones.
Satan is very much evil in the Book of Job. He literally kills the dude’s entire family and ruins his life.
Satan checked with God first to see if it was okay.
Not that it was okay, but to challenge God on His confidence in His servant. Satan will be punished for what he did to Job.
From my own experience as an ex-christian and now a “pagan” person (syncretic demonolater), I’d point many factors that converged to a general understanding of how demons aren’t so evil as we thought before (and how angels and God himself aren’t so good as we thought before), while also leading to the understanding and reevaluating of the concepts good and evil, light and darkness.
Starting by the technological progress that allowed us to connect in realtime. Social networks, online communities that gathered people once unbeknownst to each other. Online platforms that connected people from different backgrounds, sharing once unknown knowledge. Books once distant from our reaches are now easily accessible through online libraries. Knowledge was never been so easy to reach (albeit there are many people that prefer ignorance).
This leads us to another important factor: the silent rediscovery and rising of ancient beliefs. The cyberspace brought us knowledge about the Sumerian faith, Hellenism beliefs and many, many others. Everyone can now know in detail about ancient deities and concepts in just a few clicks. Entities and deities such as The Mother Goddess (once extensively worshipped by our ancestors) is being rediscovered. We can easily know a Wiccan nowadays, or a Luciferian, or a neo-hellenist, or a Gnostic, or syncretic people like me, thanks to the internet connection and community. There’s also the gnosis (i.e. knowledge through spiritual channelling) becoming available as soon as we have the basic openness to all this great knowledge and wisdom.
These two factors lead to a last factor: the weakening of Christiancracy (the former theocratic West where State and Christianity were intertwined as one) and the strengthening of both secularism (atheists, yet to understand how metaphysical aspects converge with the modern scientific inquiry; as an example, the modern chemistry began from the ancient alchemy) and syncretic ancient beliefs (once “pagan” and “forbidden” knowledge and both sacred and/or profane ritualistic practices, now openly available to be learnt and to be known).
In this way, movies and cinema are just echoes of these phenomena, echoes of the human awakening, becoming part of the culture, extending how the knowledge can reach and teach the masses, even though movies and TV series always have some degree of poetic freedom so they don’t always represent things as precisely/concisely as a book/grimoire/oral knowledge. Media knowledge is far from perfect, but their esoteric and occult references spark the curiosity on part of the audience, people that will begin to really know what it’s all about. As a personal example, I got to know some esoteric concepts through Supernatural TV series (although it demanded my own research that led me to Luciferianism and then to Lilith).
In summary, I’d call it the Aquarian Era, the Kali Yuga, the Revelation, the new Aeon. Some would call it “evil”, while humanity as a whole can now rediscover what “evilness” really is: it’s not the demons. It’s a part of the Cosmos, it’s a part of the Nature, it’s a part of ourselves, as above so below. Our spiritual awakening is important to lead us to understand our own shadows through the wisdom of ancient, ambivalent forces, and reintegrating ourselves in Oneness with them.
If you count Hel (one L) from Norse religion, older than the bible.
the idea of the snake in the Garden of Eden as having given free will and wisdom to humanity can’t be that modern of a thought, even if it would have been heretical.
In Gnosticism, the snake is sometimes identified with Jesus, while the god of the old testament is the demiurge. You’re correct in that the catholic church really didn’t like that.
We don’t know how old Hel is and it’s probably the single most syncretized aspect of Germanic/Norse belief.
It’s honestly pretty annoying that the Romans didn’t just dislike recording details about other religions, they’d actively lie about them, like Tacitus saying the Germanics didn’t have anthroform gods when we have so much proof now that they did.
Just a few off the top of my head that portray heaven in a negative light, are sympathetic to the devil, or have an otherwise non-traditional take on the judeo-christian mythos.
1995 - Memnoch the Devil, novel, Anne Rice
1995 - Preacher, comics/graphic novels, writer Garth Ennis and artist Steve Dillon, Vertigo Comics
2001 - American Gods, novel, Neil Gaiman
1990 - Good Omens, novel, Terry Pratchett
1978/1998 - What Dreams May Come, novel/movie, Richard Matheson - novel author
edit: formatting because ewww
I completely forgot to mention His Dark Materials! Hell doesn’t appear, but Heaven is portrayed as actively bad.
I have friends who are still religious and it seems like they’ve pivoted from “lake of fire” to a more “hell is the absence of God” vibes
I live in a crunchy granola area so I just assume that’s how the church here operates to keep patrons.
I mean, that’s literally the actual historical interpretation.
What the, uh, crunchy hell is a “Crunchy Granola Area”? Or did you just fired the queen of all autocorrect ever & I’m being too obtuse to detect it?
Crunchy Granola: 1) A phrase used in the 70s to describe the hippiest of the hippies, and 2) A lesser used DnD reference to 'C’haotic 'G’ood, which overlaps with 1 and began shortly after the 70s, probably as Gygax and friends were pretty counterculture.
It means an area where cosplaying as an environmentally conscious hippie as you drive your SUV to your mid level job in an exploitative corporate/tech/finance firm is in vogue.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/crunchy-granola#
- characterized by or defining oneself by ecological awareness, liberal political views, and support or use of natural products and health foods.
My wife often goes “I’m looking like a granola girl today but fuck it”
The type of place where people describe themselves as spiritual but not religious.
Aka, religion is stupid and bad but you are an asshole if you scoff at my reiki, astrology and and nonsensical ‘toxin cleanses’.
Historically hell has often been depicted as a rather cold place, away from the warmth of god’s love or what have you.
Anecdotally, 20 or so years ago, that’s what I remember being taught in CCD class when my parents were still making me go.
Dante’s Inferno (c. 1321) for example, depicts the 9th and deepest circle of hell as a large frozen lake. And many of the damned he encountered throughout the different circles are at least somewhat sympathetic, especially at the first level of where the inhabitants are by and large good people who just to not be Christians. (And to be clear, Dante often found himself at odds with the church, so his works don’t necessarily reflect official doctrine and were absolutely written to reflect his own agenda, that said a lot of our modern ideas about hell owe a lot to Dante’s depiction, and any actual mention of hell in the Bible is scarce to non-existent depending on how you interpret certain passages, so his version is just as valid as any other in my opinion)
Religion is pretty hard to believe if it wasn’t the one you were raised into. And it’s often times pretty hard to get out of the one you were raised into.
But outside of religion, a pretty common fictional view is that heaven is the extreme end of order, and hell is the extreme end of chaos. Neither one can harbor any middle ground, and thus they would both suck to be stuck in.
Inside religion, whatever your religion’s version of heaven is, usually depends on what “your people(local and as a whole)” would want it to be. It changes over time and distance to better fit. But never bring up that it has changed, as it has always been this one and true correct way of depicting it, to question that is some kind of sin… and hell of course is similarly fluid despite having always been “this” way.
In truth, they have both been depicted every which way imaginable.
It’s funny that you bring the evolution/interpretation thing because Hell didn’t even really exist for centuries
Yeah, that’s just one of the ways it has changed over time for some cultures, hehe. There were plenty of millenia before hell was even thought of the first time, we probably will never know what the first written use of it was, let alone the first time it was used in oral storytelling. But with what little evidence we do have from thousands of years ago, we can see that the idea of hell was never consistent since.
It’s pretty modern if you mean popular, although the idea itself is REALLY old.
Rather than going into specific examples because there are a lot of them (especially in gaming and TV), I’d like to say my piece on cliches.
Basically, cliches come to exist because the cliche trope is a really good idea.
“The Butler did it” as a murder mystery trope is a fantastic idea because some people with too much money will use the protection money affords them to mistreat their employees, providing a great motive you can build on to create a great story with relatable morals and characters. It sets up a character with perfect motives, means and a reasonable position of trust to avoid suspicion.
Similarly, “Hell good, Heaven bad” is a fantastic trope because it lets you step back and analyse things like the negative impacts of religion and how authorities (and the bible) will portray themselves as good regardless of their actual actions. Plus of course there were periods of time where people were told doing virtually anything that didn’t fit into an extremely narrow worldview meant you were going to hell. You know, stuff like basketball and Dungeons and Dragons.
Now, the problem with cliches is when someone sees a popular idea that’s also a very good idea, but doesn’t understand why it was a good idea. As a result, when they use the idea, it rings hollow at absolute best, and that kind of terrible execution of something that’s already known and popular tends to be especially disappointing. I think the best example is The Hunger Games, which absolutely defined young adult dystopian fiction for years because it showed how the media industry mistreats its workers, and Alleigant, which used a lot of ideas from Hunger Games (and some other things) without actually understanding the ideas.
(TLDR: Hunger Games has a love triangle as a prominent plot element, but the actual reason is that it’s perpetuated by the media pretty much on pain of death for Katniss so that she can entertain the viewers. By contrast, Alleigant also has a love triangle but the triangle IS the plot element and the author bends over backwards to make it happen despite the fact none of the characters really feel like they’re suitable for it)
Anyways, cliches aren’t bad but you need to know how, why, and when to use them in order to actually fulfil their potential, and the heaven-hell one you’ve mentioned above is no exception.
Letters from Earth was written by Mark Twain in 1909, but publishers refused to publish it until 1962. So, I’d say it’s fairly modern, starting around 1962 and becoming more acceptable since then.
You should watch more Lucifer.
You have a very flawed perception on what’s going on in the good place if you think the actors from “the bad place” are working to get people into heaven, or the reason the people of heaven leave so quickly.
But I’ll bite on what I perceive to be a barely good faith question and not a concern troll post.
When you look at the idea pushed (especially in the last few hundred years) of a dichotomy of infinite joy or infinite suffering, there’s a lot of realism that can be pushed in the gray areas. The absolutist of everything is good because everything is good and everything is evil because everything is evil has been portrayed from the good side for a long time, the somewhere in between that modern media takes from brings things towards the middle on both sides, but concern trolls can’t rationalize heaven to be anything but perfect, so they go on tirades about media they don’t care to look at critically, whenever they feel their absolutist belief of heaven good is analyzed with a modicum of scrutiny.
I know I probably shouldn’t engage, but I really just wanted to spark a conversation. I find the trope interesting. I agree that my Good Place example isn’t that good, but still, no need to be so accusing.
