Meanwhile the East doesn’t even think about this unlike the still-developing West with it’s DST concept
I did this one year. It was better. It just feels like normal time. I don’t actually remember it being a problem at all and my morning/evening was better.
It becomes a problem when you now have to work at other times and when you have to go shopping in the morning/evening.
I never bother to change the clocks. The mental work to remember that appointment times or work times are one hour ahead/behind my clocks is nothing.
You laugh but there’s a thing called “farm time” that’s exactly this and has been a thing in the rural Midwest in various places. I remember visiting my grandmother in Indiana as a kid and they had it there out in the middle of fuck-off nowhere.
Depending on how long ago you were a kid, that could’ve just been because Indiana as a state didn’t start observing DST until 2006, rural or not
80s & 90s.
They always used to claim daylight savings was for farmers, even though farmers are probably the people in society who least have to follow the same daily schedule as anyone else.
You can blame this fuck https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Hudson_(entomologist) He wanted more time to look at bugs after work.
The rationale I heard in the northern U.S. was that kids would have to wait for or walk home from the school bus in the dark. It doesn’t really make sense, but that’s not an issue apparently.
So they set it up so that the sun goes down even earlier the season with less sunlight?
It seems to me like the sun going down an hour earlier is the last thing we need when winter comes.
It is of you only care about the time you spend being a productive citizen for your boss, not your leisure time.
In a same world they would just get to school earlier and leave earlier - that’s all DST effectively does while adding a heaping helping of absolute insanity.
It also makes dealing with dates even more complicated in programming, especially when you have to check whether an event/person is in somewhere like Arizona that doesn’t do DST (besides the Navajo Nation…)
In summer, we have about 15 hours of daylight and 9 hours of night. In winter, we have about 9 hours of daylight, and 15 hours of night. In summer, on standard time, we get about 3 more hours of daylight in the morning, and 3 more hours of daylight in the evening than we do in winter.
Suppose you use a constant schedule year round, and set your alarm clock to wake you 30 minutes before sunrise in the middle of winter. If you kept that same alarm into summer, you would be sleeping through the first 2.5 hours of daylight.
DST “saves” one of those morning hours, by shifting the clock forward. Relative to standard (winter) time, you add 2 hours of daylight in the morning, and 4 in the evening, instead of 3 and 3. Switching to DST (theoretically) minimizes disruption to our morning schedule.
I think we should focus on the evening instead of the morning. The evenings are where the overwhelming majority of us are free of work, school, and other obligations. Our mornings belong to bosses and teachers; The evenings are our time for home and family, rest and recreation.
If we are going to change times, we should reverse the time change. Instead of “falling back”, we should skip forward in November, minimizing disruption to our evenings instead of their mornings. Imagine winter sunsets at 6:30 PM instead of 4:30PM. Imagine the kids being able to play outdoors for two more hours after school than they currently get.
Alternatively, (and preferably) we should just stay on “Summer” time year round.
What? No. Noon is when the sun is directly overhead.
You are describing solar noon: the highest position the sun reaches during the day.
Solar noon occurs some time between 11:30AM and 12:30PM in local standard time, depending on where exactly you are within your time zone: the east edge of your time zone experiences solar noon 60 minutes earlier than the west edge of your time zone. Solar noon only matches local standard time in the middle of the timezone.
Solar noon occurs between 12:30 PM and 1:30 PM in local Daylight Savings Time, depending on where exactly you are within your time zone. The clocks have shifted an hour, pushing solar noon an hour later in the chronological day.
Solar noon does not occur at 12PM during the summer in locations that observe DST. The clock shifts forward relative to the sun, moving solar noon back an hour.
We gain 6 hours of daylight.
Under standard time, we gain 3 hours of daylight before noon and 3 hours after noon going from winter to summer. Sunrise is about 3 hours earlier, and sunset is about 3 hours later.
But, because we also shift the clocks, sunrise is only two hours earlier in summer DST than winter Standard Time. Sunset is four hours later in summer DST than winter Standard Time. We effectively gain 2 hours of morning and 4 hours of evening time.
“Suppose you use a constant schedule year round”
It took a full paragraph to get to saying you didn’t read them comment and then four more to elaborate on that?
I introduced the concept of consistent morning schedules, and I briefly argued that we should make our evening schedules consistent, rather than our morning schedules. This would require not eliminating the time change, but reversing it.
I challenge you to find any other proposal for reversing DST: Fall Forward, Spring Back.
they have to get up and go to school in the dark now down here in the midwest, so idk about that one.
It never made sense to me but also DST confuses me a lot in general.
I watched a documentary on it, it was actually a war thing. Back then many factories didn’t have lights so they could adjust to the sun easier using DST.
It was only implemented during WWI and WWII until sometime in the sixties when it became permanent.
I always thought it was for office workers and was essentially a green energy program. I’ve never heard an argument that it had anything to do with farmers, especially since farmers set their schedule by dawn and dusk.
research has proven time after time that the practice doesnt actually save energy or time in the modern age
Wasn’t there a bill recently to get rid of DST, and it got stalled in Congress or something?
I thought the news was that it was going to happen, but I haven’t kept up.
I found this from earlier this year…so, yeah, basically stalled in Congress.
There was a provincial bill in BC, Canada to stop the change that passed but it had no date to take effect since they wanted to sync with west coast states. It’s like enough people want to change but no one will be the first one so it’s not too awkward.
That’s what I do with the automated cat feeders. Cats do not observe daylight savings time.
To be fair, cats don’t observe any rules.
They set rules for their subjects to follow.
I kept my Kindle on UK time so that when I wake up in the middle of the night I can read a bit and have no idea how long there is to my alarm going off, which I hate knowing.
It’s for big candy big bbq to have more daylight to sell more candy and bbq before the sun goes down
Sure he does, becsuse all time-measuring devices of any sort in his house are analogue and have to be changed manually, and none them have phones which automatically corrects the time.
So in essences they have some clocks in theirs houses which are off by an hour for four months a year. They still use the time everyone else uses, because that’s how time works.
You can pretty easily disable automatic daylight savings time adjustments on most devices, even my car has the option.
Aye you can. But I just don’t believe in a whole family pretending to live in a different time than everybody else’s for 4 months.
I do believe in lazy shits who don’t manage to change all the clocks which don’t get automatically updated, but for that person to actually put in effort to dodge the DLT? Not believable imo. You’d have to be really fucking obstinate.
I wouldn’t call myself a lazy shit just because I don’t care to update the clock on my fucking microwave, oven and kitchen scale. Why do all these devices have clocks anyways it does not make sense.
I mean I meant like if you have clocks on the walls and such. If you have them already, why not change. But you can’t help your microwave wanting to show you the time.
Mine doesn’t. Never had a digital one, don’t really need one, the dial ones are good enough. My oven or airfryer don’t have clocks either. My wristwatch and phone update themselves.
I was more thinking like my dad always being too lazy to change the clocks on the walls. Didn’t mean to offend you.
So you can time food cooking.
A timer works independent of whatever the current time is because it only needs to count down the passage of time. Also everyone already has multiple clocks on walls, wrists and phones.
There are lakes, ponds and puddles that exist beyond any particular ocean, if you can grasp the analogy.
I don’t know what you mean. I asked why do we need clocks on ovens. You said “to time cooking” but you can have a timer without a clock so it is still not needed and your answer is invalid.
Digital clocks were a thing long before the internet.
Digital in sense of how they displayed time, sure, but not digital in how they update it. Not connected.
Not online. Offline clocks, I should’ve said.
Who would think digital clocks are newer than the Internet wth
Oh, sure they are. The one I’m using has been around for 50 years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCF77
Half the clocks sold here do support it, and even many “analog” (as in the clock face) ones.
The time-keeping in Central Europe is a bit different than ours here in the Nordics I see.
Either I’m so high that I’ve forgotten, or I learned something new from reading that. Thanks. TIL.
Source?
With the amount of idiots online, I have no idea if this is sarcasm or a genuine request.
I’ve never seen an idiot online. Source?
Daylight Saving…
you can also just wake up earlier and you magically save daylight. It’s almost like winter has different sun cycles to the summer or something. What a fascinating concept.
I’m just going to use UTC, nothing is going to stop me, my neighbors? Get fucked learn to convert.
Fuck it, I’m going to pick a timezone on Mars and live by that. Bam, extra half hour every day! You can’t control me, Earth’s spin!
that might actually be the definition of evil
Plot twist: He lives in Arizona where the whole state does that
Indiana used to (mostly) ignore it, then I moved to L.A. and had to get used to it, then I moved back to Indiana a decade later and they’d started doing it. Argh!
M night shamallamadingdong twist - He lives in part of the reservation that does observe daylight savings.
I work for a Chinese company and my colleagues treat daylight savings time as an inexplicable religious ritual that they indulgently accommodate us ptimitives iin.
I feel the same as a programmer. Also time zones.
I would totally agree if Beijing didn’t force the rest of China to use their time zone, lol. Noon in Western China is nuts to experience.
It is a ridiculous thing, but it doesn’t strike them as odd that their own country has just one timezone despite being wider than the USA?
I’d be happy if the whole planet had the same timezone. Just adjust your personal life to global time, rather than expecting time to adjust to anyone’s work/school timetable.
I’ve read we would all compensate in ways that would essentially bring back time zones.
Reminded me of this:
Falsehoods programmers believe about time
short list
Nope I lied
- There are always 24 hours in a day.
- February is always 28 days long.
- Any 24-hour period will always begin and end in the same day (or week, or month).
- A week always begins and ends in the same month.
- A week (or a month) always begins and ends in the same year.
- The machine that a program runs on will always be in the
GMTtime zone. - Ok, that’s not true. But at least the time zone in which a program has to run will never change.
- Well, surely there will never be a change to the time zone in which a program hast to run in production.
- The system clock will always be set to the correct local time.
- The system clock will always be set to a time that is not wildly different from the correct local time.
- If the system clock is incorrect, it will at least always be off by a consistent number of seconds.
- The server clock and the client clock will always be set to the same time.
- The server clock and the client clock will always be set to around the same time.
- Ok, but the time on the server clock and time on the client clock would never be different by a matter of decades.
- If the server clock and the client clock are not in synch, they will at least always be out of synch by a consistent number of seconds.
- The server clock and the client clock will use the same time zone.
- The system clock will never be set to a time that is in the distant past or the far future.
- Time has no beginning and no end.
- One minute on the system clock has exactly the same duration as one minute on any other clock
- Ok, but the duration of one minute on the system clock will be pretty close to the duration of one minute on most other clocks.
- Fine, but the duration of one minute on the system clock would never be more than an hour.
- The smallest unit of time is one second.
- Ok, one millisecond.
- It will never be necessary to set the system time to any value other than the correct local time.
- Ok, testing might require setting the system time to a value other than the correct local time but it will never be necessary to do so in production.
- Time stamps will always be specified in a commonly-understood format like
1339972628or133997262837. - Time stamps will always be specified in the same format.
- Time stamps will always have the same level of precision.
- A time stamp of sufficient precision can safely be considered unique.
- A timestamp represents the time that an event actually occurred.
- Human-readable dates can be specified in universally understood formats such as
05/07/11. - The offsets between two time zones will remain constant.
- OK, historical oddities aside, the offsets between two time zones won’t change in the future.
- Changes in the offsets between time zones will occur with plenty of advance notice.
- Daylight saving time happens at the same time every year.
- Daylight saving time happens at the same time in every time zone.
- Daylight saving time always adjusts by an hour.
- Months have either 28, 29, 30, or 31 days.
- The day of the month always advances contiguously from
Nto eitherN+1or1, with no discontinuities. - There is only one calendar system in use at one time.
- There is a leap year every year divisible by 4.
- Non leap years will never contain a leap day.
- It will be easy to calculate the duration of x number of hours and minutes from a particular point in time.
- The same month has the same number of days in it everywhere!
- Unix time is completely ignorant about anything except seconds.
- Unix time is the number of seconds since Jan 1st 1970.
- The day before Saturday is always Friday.
- Contiguous timezones are no more than an hour apart. (aka we don’t need to test what happens to the avionics when you fly over the International Date Line)
- Two timezones that differ will differ by an integer number of half hours.
- Okay, quarter hours.
- Okay, seconds, but it will be a consistent difference if we ignore
DST. - If you create two date objects right beside each other, they’ll represent the same time. (a fantastic Heisenbug generator)
- You can wait for the clock to reach exactly
HH:MM:SSby sampling once a second. - If a process runs for
nseconds and then terminates, approximatelynseconds will have elapsed on the system clock at the time of termination. - Weeks start on Monday.
- Days begin in the morning.
- Holidays span an integer number of whole days.
- The weekend consists of Saturday and Sunday.
- It’s possible to establish a total ordering on timestamps that is useful outside your system.
- The local time offset (from
UTC) will not change during office hours. Thread.sleep(1000)sleeps for 1000 milliseconds.Thread.sleep(1000)sleeps for=1000 milliseconds.- There are 60 seconds in every minute.
- Timestamps always advance monotonically.
GMTandUTCare the same timezone.- Britain uses
GMT. - Time always goes forwards.
- The difference between the current time and one week from the current time is always
7 * 86400seconds. - The difference between two timestamps is an accurate measure of the time that elapsed between them.
24:12:34is a invalid time.- Every integer is a theoretical possible year.
- If you display a datetime, the displayed time has the same second part as the stored time,
- Or the same year,
- But at least the numerical difference between the displayed and stored year will be less than 2.
- If you have a date in a correct
YYYY-MM-DDformat, the year consists of four characters. - If you merge two dates, by taking the month from the first and the day/year from the second, you get a valid date.
- But it will work, if both years are leap years
- If you take a w3c published algorithm for adding durations to dates, it will work in all cases.
- The standard library supports negative years and years above 10000.
- Time zones always differ by a whole hour.
- If you convert a timestamp with millisecond precision to a date time with second precision, you can safely ignore the millisecond fractions.
- But you can ignore the millisecond fraction, if it is less than 0.5.
- Two-digit years should be somewhere in the range 1900-2099.
- If you parse a date time, you can read the numbers character for character, without needing to backtrack.
- But if you print a date time, you can write the numbers character for character, without needing to backtrack.
- You will never have to parse a format like
---12ZorP12Y34M56DT78H90M12.345S. - There are only 24 time zones.
- Time zones are always whole hours away from UTC.
- Daylight Saving Time (DST) starts/ends on the same date everywhere.
- DST is always an advancement by 1 hour.
- Reading the client’s clock and comparing to UTC is a good way to determine their timezone.
- The software stack will/won’t try to automatically adjust for timezone/DST.
- My software is only used internally/locally, so I don’t have to worry about timezones.
- My software stack will handle it without me needing to do anything special.
- I can easily maintain a timezone list myself.
- All measurements of time on a given clock will occur within the same frame of reference.
- The fact that a date-based function works now means it will work on any date.
- Years have 365 or 366 days.
- Each calendar date is followed by the next in sequence, without skipping.
- A given date and/or time unambiguously identifies a unique moment.
- Leap years occur every 4 years.
- You can determine the time zone from the state/province.
- You can determine the time zone from the city/town.
- Time passes at the same speed on top of a mountain and at the bottom of a valley.
- One hour is as long as the next in all time systems.
- You can calculate when leap seconds will be added.
- The precision of the data type returned by a
getCurrentTime()function is the same as the precision of that function. - Two subsequent calls to a
getCurrentTime()function will return distinct results. - The second of two subsequent calls to a
getCurrentTime()function will return a larger result. - The software will never run on a space ship that is orbiting a black hole.
- Devices will be set to the local timezone
- Users prefer to use the local timezone
As a programmer I would love that. But as a person it does make more sense to go “it’s 4am in California, that person is probably sleeping” than “it’s 11am, what is the sun situation like in California rn?”
The best counter point I’ve heard for it is that a date change would happen in the middle of the work day for half the world. That does sound tough to deal with
Just abolish dates and use Unix Timestamp for everything.
And abolish celebrating birthdays too?
Birthdays could happen on the same interval as always
No, you can celebrate your Arch installation anniversary once every thirty million seconds.
“See you this evening at 1728326925, okay?”
Considering that there are quite a few people with unusual sleep and/or work schedules that doesn’t help nearly as much as you would think.
I am one of the people with unusual sleep schedules. If you know someone well enough to know their personal timezone then you can use that regardless. It’s still useful to know the hours a country usually operates in.
How about ‘the majority of businesses, offices, and people are active from 8-10 or whatever, so when my plane lands at 11:00 am in Tokyo, I can be reasonably confident that I will be able to do standard human business things’ versus, what time does Tokyo wake up?
Also every city and even neighborhoods would end up disjointed and on their own system since even just a few miles can make a big difference on when the sun sets and rises.
Timezones were made specifically to link people that were geographically far apart, we had a time before time zones, and people missed their trains all the time because 9pm meant something to pretty much every single person.
As a programmer who works with people on both side of the pond, it often doesn’t matter what time it is there, as they’re not necessarily working standard hours anyway. They have families and errands and choose to work overnight essentially at random, so we’ve adapted to communicating asynchronously for 90% of our work.
What a fucking mess that would be, nobody would have any idea what time of day anyone was talking about when they said “8 o’clock”. You’d always have to check. Now you only have to check if you want stuff to happen simultaneously.
There’s a good reason time zones exist and why shit doesn’t work so well in China with just one. “Work starts at 8” might have a pretty different meaning to different parts over there lmao.
This is the level of not giving a damn I want to reach.
Respect! Guy’s got his own time zone.
