I think we’ve had enough of the vegan cat food argument on Lemmy.world at this point.
My biggest gripe with vegan communities is that a lot of them have an “All or Nothing” mentality, going fully vegan is a luxury not everyone can afford, and yet I find mainly malice when trying to talk about reducing ones own reliance on meat and other animal products in online communities.
And veganism, if taken to the “no suffering of sentient beings” full extreme, forbids buying things (not just food) produced by slavery. And those things, especially electronics and clothes, are not financially viable for most to be bought without any slavery involved in any step whatsoever.
Which is precisely why they will get along with the tankies so well. Both treat the very idea of nuance as an existential threat to the point where everything much be driven by the most extreme degree of moral panic or nothing at all.
Vegan diets are popular in third world countries because they’re considerably cheaper. Meat is cheap in western countries because it’s very often subsidized by governments. Meat consumption by wealth proves eating animals is a luxury.
Also veganism mantras always have “as far as is practicable”. I bought a Samsung phone because Fairphones don’t work here in Australia.
Unsolicited advice: Your goal is to do no more or less than the best you can. If you’re doing that, no one got shit on you.
Save animals and switch to orphan-meat
your oxford study doesn’t account for anyone who gets free or subsidized meat, or who catches, raises, or hunts their own. so it excludes basically all of the working poor, which is basically everyone.
or who catches, raises, or hunts their own.
How does catching, raising, or hunting meat compare to planting or gathering their own plant-based food?
Or how does ‘free or subsidized meat’ compare with free or subsidized plant based food?
How does catching, raising, or hunting meat compare to planting or gathering their own plant-based food?
as the deer spends all year gathering nutrients, and they can spend one morning gathering the deer, it seems to me it’s highly effective.
Most vegans would allow an exception for certain lifestyles. People hunting for their homestead aren’t going to cause a global issue like is currently happening.
Ideally we wouldnt hunt at all but thats like some sort of futuristic goal. Noones going to tell you to starve your family to appease veganism, thats not the point.
The point is to reduce suffering and abuse wherever possible. Sometimes its not possible.
People hunting for their homestead aren’t going to cause a global issue like is currently happening.
that’s not what the vegan society says about animal exploitation.
Lol, ok so you’re including labor cost?
A couple years of a dear ‘gathering nutrients’, vs a summer of cultivating a garden and harvesting? Or do I need to include the energy expenditure (energy ingested by the dear minus energy lost to biological processes, vs solar energy collected minus energy expended on building plant mass and energy expended in harvest)?
I was really just pointing out the absurdity of your complaint about the study but you’re making this into a fun little digression.
it costs us almost nothing to take down a deer. it costs us a great deal to raise a garden.
Costs nothing to harvest a plant, too.
Costs a great deal to own a gun and ammunition, a truck to haul, tools and labor to clean and butcher, and more to store and prepare it. To speak nothing of the labor of the dear to produce the biomass.
Lol we can keep going with this if you want, it’s pretty fun.
if it’s free, then throwing it out and acquiring plants is more expensive.
If it’s free then throwing it out costs nothing though, right? Or are you talking about the cost of the state subsidy?
Wouldn’t it be cheaper to the state to subsidize a plant-based diet instead?
Wouldn’t it be cheaper to the state to subsidize a plant-based diet instead?
regardless of what would be a good decision for the state, the oxford paper doesn’t acknowledge the material conditions of most people.
If it’s free then throwing it out costs nothing though, right?
but replacing it would cost something. throwing away perfectly good food isn’t something most people think is a moral good.
Yeah I respect vegans, and applaud them for their life choices. I’m not in a position to, or willing at this point to become a vegan, but I looked at their community… Mostly insults when referring to any meat eater. Yeah, I respect them a fair bit less now.
Person who pays for animals to be tortured feels a bit miffed.
And this is why its impossible to have a conversation with yall. Even if you believe this, if you are hostile to outsiders, you just guarantee theyll want to do it more. Cult deprogrammers have to be real nice and mostly just listen for a reason
Your performative concern for animals is noted.
I’ll put those performative points into my V card for later use.
Yes that’s how you have a conversation. Good job.
Says the person who pays for humans to be tortured they can have a phone.
See? We can all make disingenuous, insulting statements; but that’s not productive in getting people to listen to us.
depending on how you see things, abuse is part of any system. that said, humans are at least able to be a part of the system and have dialogue with the system. there is potential to effect a system.
this cannot be said for a 4 day old calf being taken away from the mother for slaughter just so the mother can continue to lactate and little fat Jonny can have his full fat on his frosties again.
lastly, it’s hardly insulting to remind people that they pay for disgusting levels of animal abuse.
Person who pays for animals to be tortured
no one does that
You can keep telling yourself that if it helps.
if you have evidence to the contrary, you should present it.
I’m guessing they mean factory farming
have you ever paid anyone at a factory farm? i haven’t, and i don’t think most people have.
in torture, the pain is the point. while i think factory farming is too ambivalent about suffering, i also believe the suffering is only incidental, not intentional. it’s not torture.
perhaps you could explain that subtle difference to the animals going through the system of abuse.
Im sure it would brighten up their days no end to realise the pain they are experiencing is not the point of the system and that therefore, they are not being tortured.
Dave, in fact, could not behave and could not resist a personal attack.
is it very personal?
Do you not understand what the word “personal” means, or are you confused about this usage of attack?
maybe you could enlighten me
Alright. If I were to say something like “You’re a dumbass, and have no room to criticize.” that’d be a personal attack because I’d be making a (metaphorical) attack on your person (character). Hope that helps.
sure. I did not say anything like that. I just reminded the poster that they pay people to abuse and kill animals.
Is that really so personal?
What part of insulted their individual lifestyle seems like business to you?
Where is the border between acceptable and not acceptable lifestyle? The animals can’t consent. If you beat your wife, is that also an individual lifestyle we have to respect? What if you neglect and beat your pets, for a closer example? What if your individual lifestyle is dumping trash into the ocean?
Luckily we pass laws to regulate unacceptable lifestyles.
Go pass some laws. Instead of trying to be a vegan vigilante, try to organize and show compassion to people. Even if that means being belittled in the process, you’ll have the moral high ground.
they said that they pay to have things killed on their behalf.
if they say it, then it ain’t very personal is it?
“It’s not a personal attack if you provided me with the information I used to attack you”
rather than paying for an actual physical attack on an animal.
When you know what occurs in factory farming. Its hard to continue to be nice to others who have the ability to stop supporting the cruel system with their money.
Its often easier to go vegan than people initially believe. You can do it.
We really dont though. It is simply not realistic to fight for an ethic that requires the overwhelming majority to be hyperrational in their ethics. Human nature tends toward cruelty, and Ive yet to see a vegan have recourse for that.
Setting aside the whole plants feel pain too bit
People are cruel often because of the systems they’re raised in. I could show you many instances where kindness is punished in order to maintain the status quo of hierarchical systems. Humans can be much more ethical if we chose to be.
Plant react to stimuli however they do not have the nervous system to process pain like the way cows and pigs do.
And yet people default to those systems and have since the agricultural revolution.
As for plant stimuli, who are you to say that doesn’t constitute pain? They sure communicate it to those around them, cut grass smell and all that. Does an ant not feel pain because it mostly just responds to and sends out pheromones? Bit of a “my red is your blue” argument you’re making.
By eating plant-based you reduce the amount of plants that are grown for human consumption since you skip the farm animals completely “if you’re so concerned about plants feeling pain”
You wouldn’t kick a person and justify that logic saying “but plants feel pain every time you walk on grass”
As a vegan tankie, I’m more than happy to welcome anyone who is passionate about justice and equality. If you think for yourself rather than just following and upholding arbitrary social norms, you’re going to get pushback from the people who believe in those norms. Whether the norms in question are the needless industrialized mass slaughter of animals, or the needless industrialized mass slaughter of the victims of US imperialism. And it’s much easier to have meaningful, higher level discussions among people who share certain common values, so you’re not having to constantly refute the same shitty low effort talking points over and over.
Please, keep pushing your vegan users our way.
Isn’t it a rule if they stop acting superior they lose their vegan card and superpowers?
“We taught a lion to eat Tofu”
I mean what a fucking mountain to die on. Bravo to all involved this has been quite entertaining.
I like and admire vegans.
I probably should be vegan because I am lucky enough to have the economic privilege to support that kind of lifestyle.
But, as with many other communities centered around lifestyle topics, I would never want to participate in a vegan community. Lifestyle communities always become insular and echo-chambery, so you become a pariah if you don’t properly adhere to 100% of the community consensus behaviors.
Not just vegans, but you see it happen with fitness communities, diy/home decor, a lot of hobbies, etc.
Just don’t interact with communities you dislike. It’s a pretty bad excuse to blame other people for your decisions.
so you become a pariah if you don’t properly adhere to 100% of the community consensus behaviors.
You don’t pocket mulch?!
I’m a level 5
I’m just keeping an eye out for good recipes.
I like that approach.
Let me know if you find any favorites, I am down for anything easy and quick if they’re out there (as long as it’s not more rice and beans).
Abstaining from animal murder and torture is admirable and something I should do OTOH some internet commenters are mean about it
I wonder why they would be mean…
@Stovetop did not say nor implied that he/she is not vegan, because of the community.
I probably should be vegan … But … I would never want to participate in a vegan community.
Seems pretty clear to me.
Then you need to go back to school for reading comprehension, because being a vegan and participating in a community about veganism are not the same thing, not even remotely close.
and yet that seems to be the stated reason…
Only if you have poor reading comprehension.
Only because you’re inferring a lot from a couple comments. You don’t know why they aren’t vegan (which could be for any number of reasons), the only thing you know, and are basing your entire assumptions on, is that they don’t want to hang out in spaces full of insufferable vegans.
You can take part in something without taking part in the community about that thing, though. I play guitar a lot, but I don’t frequent any guitar-based communities
I’m fully aware, but “I’m not going vegan because they’re so annoying” is a pretty common excuse.
It is a common excuse. And yet you’re still being really annoying.
Sorry for not being nicer to bloodmouths. Wouldst thou please ent’rtain the notion of not enslaving sentient beings?
Take the L dude.
Not only is that clearly not the reason in this case, of what you say is true (and I believe it considering your behavior) that’s a pretty damning indictment about your collective personalities.
Youre blaming OTHERS for leaving your cause because YOU’RE impossible to put up with. Pathetic. The literal definition of that meme where the dude puts the stick into his bike spokes and then cries about it.
If you hate non-vegans so much then stop talking to them. Simple as.
Im saying if someone stops being vegan because of what people say they dont actually hold the moral conviction that torture, rape and murder of any animal is wrong. I’m not crying about others leavinge “the cause” Im angry at the smugness and how readily people will accept any excuse in order to keep the literal orphan crushing machine going.
Yeah that isn’t what they said though
Good job! This is the comment that made them turn vegan! Mission accomplished!
I was going to stop torturing animals, bit some mean vegan said some words that hurt my feelings.
So now I’m going to eat two burgers!
chortle!
I think I will actually do this now just to prove you wrong
legendary!
Meat eaters will be convicted for eating meat in the future.
Lmfao. You gonna be vegan Stalin or something?
Stalin only cares for himself.
By holding meat eaters accountable for the crimes of eating the flesh of others we prevent the deaths of other animals.
If your belief lives or dies because of some internet comment it won’t last anyway.
See here’s what’s really really funny, people over and over again say “man if the vegan people who were trying to convince me could just not be gigantic assholes about it then maybe it would be easier to join their community”
And then you come along and are a gigantic asshole about it and prove the entire point.
Super solid representation, 5/7, perfection.
Having a reasonable discussion with these people is like trying to play a game of chess with a pigeon. They’ll topple all the pieces, shit on the board and claim victory.
Gonna copy large chunks of my last comment because no ones there to stop me.
This isn’t a debate like how should we reduce plastic accumulation or the carcinogenic properties of red meat. Not supporting slavery and murder should be the norm, not something that needs to be argued for at length. Being vegan is not doing something good, but not being vegan is doing something evil. This is our position. If someone can’t accept that what their doing is evil but needs to be asked nicely not to kill the screaming orphan who never got to meet his mom because we wanted to steal her milk then they won’t accept that it is an actual real evil that is taking place. It will remain a theoretical. But there really is a room where these orphans are brought to be murdered. A person murdering them. And a mother who screamed bitterly over losing their newborn. It is a real evil and being polite about it masks the horror taking place not to mention is completely insincere since we aren’t interested in debating or in weighing pros and cons. It’s a horrific injustice and we will talk about it as such. There is an evil inherent to not being vegan. Fuck the non-vegans.
this is pretty much just appeal to emotion.
If you need people to be nice to you to convince you, you care more about appearances than the argument. If people being rude stops you from acting on something you actually believe in you won’t last a month as a vegan.
Going vegan means changing your habits, giving up a lot of your treats with nothing in return. You will be the weird one at christmas that needs “special” catering, people have to choose restaurants based on your habits and you will be the butt of a lot of jokes simply because you care about animals not being enslaved. If you need people to be nice to you, and applaud you and make you feel all warm and fuzzy to keep that going you won’t last.
The first lesson every vegan needs to learn is: there are no rewards and no one will compliment you. You are doing this out of your own conviction and not for anyone else.
Well this has been great, thanks for being the point.
good talk nice representation, really convinced me to be nicer to corpsemunchers going forward.
You must be exhausting to be around. sheesh
This is precisely the circlejerking mentioned in the meme. Whether true or not, the community presents itself as unwelcoming and self-aggrandizing. These are not traits that easily convince people to listen to the cause.
There’s nothing to listen to, either you believe animal ag is horrendous and unethical and act on it or you don’t. That’s it. No pretty pleases are going to convince someone they have to give up their beloved steak and cheese for nothing in return.
Going vegan means changing your habits, giving up a lot of your treats with nothing in return. You will be the weird one at christmas that needs “special” catering, people have to choose restaurants based on your habits and you will be the butt of a lot of jokes simply because you care about animals not being enslaved. If you need people to be nice to you, and applaud you and make you feel all warm and fuzzy to keep that going you won’t last.
this should be on a billboard.
thing is, it’s a philosophy of empathy and compassion. you don’t really join a.commmunity. there are no V cards I’m afraid.
This discussion is literally about the vegan community here on Lemmy
I thought it was more about abuse.
If belligerent internet comments actually convinced you to change your diet in such an inconvenient manner for no reward but moral superiority, you are not like the people you’re trying to convince. Abusers and cults love bomb because its more effective on a random sample of people
If one believes that the mother losing her newborn cries about it for days and that this is happening on an industrial scale that person will be very indignant about such a horrific injustice. That’s what convinced me, this is a real injustice and not being angry about it would be insincere
Convincing people to be ethical past the point of inconvenience requires insincerity, yes. The average person is a horrible human being
That’s not the goal. They attack people because that makes them feel better. Animals? Who cares. Definitely not them.
Nah, facts dont care about feelings. Being vegan a day prevents the death of an animal.
I’m a cow and this made me feel better about my fate
yes. it is the vegans who really hate animals!
it definitely seems so sometimes
and never the people who fund an industrial killing machine for food we don’t actually need and will kill us both individually and collectively.
What I said is that you don’t help animals with your hysteria. So I can conclude vegans struggle with logic. At least in your case.
brutal take down. nice
Nope, thats projection when carnists refuse to read all the studies that supports the plant-based diet and act rude when they realize their actions cause harm.
Hexbear’s largest and most site-threatening drama was over its vegan comm (and I think the mods of Reddit’s vegancirclejerk?). It ended with the site requiring content warnings on all pictures of meat.
But you know what? They were right. Vegans are basically right about everything, and the reason me and my fellow omnis get our jimmies so rustled by them is because we fucking know they’re right.
casual drive-by meme;
You guys 🥹
Look the beans were great, but our own bender-hookers-and-blow meme. You shouldn’t have ☺️❤️❤️❤️
Did they move to .ml or hexbear?
Both already had a vegan community and hexbear is vegan by default (carnists need to tag their post if it contains meat, dairy etc.)
Lots of othering happening by commentators promoting to be vegan, is othering a core principle of veganism?
I may be wrong, but I think that veganism is about not exploiting/eating sentient creatures
So the aggressive othering is just something done for fun?
You might feel othered because you are different, but I for one wish all animals feel nothing but acceptance and peace (including you)
Oh bless your heart my sweet summer child.
Are you othering me?
Both and more
Vegans and transsexuals turning to fascists is one of the things that I’ll never understand.
transsexuals
This is exactly why trans people flocked to a community that actually respects them.
What’s wrong with the word “transexual”? \gen
“[…] well moderated and run.”
LOL!
ITT: circlejerking.
Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
I had a look at the community yesterday, every post bar one was about vegan cat food for the last week. They’re not taking this well at all.
Cats can thrive on vegan diets perfectly well. Mine is still with me since like 4 years and didn’t eat a single animal protein in that time…
It’s called being a responsible human and minimising suffering.
Four years isn’t that long, cats can live up to twenty years.
I just had a look myself after your comment and cannot confirm your claim at all. There are, understandably, quite a few posts about this debacle and the future of their sub but more than half is stuff related to veganism not related to cats.
what - the only 5 active people in there got tired of getting bullied or something lmao
I still don’t know what tankies are and Im too afraid to ask.
