You mean those jobs in coal mines and coal factories that are literally being lost anyway because there’s a dwindling supply and the billionaires who own those companies are finding ways to automate and kick those workers to the curb? You mean those jobs? Or are you talking about the couple hundred people who work on oil rigs? Certainly you’re not thinking of gas station attendants or the guys who haul gas across the country. Because obviously they can’t get other jobs that are comparable. ಠ⁠_⁠ಠ

This is more of that stupid fucking fear-mongering about climate change policy. Jobs come and go. Industries close down, other industries open up in their place. That’s part of the nature of an economy. To say that people will be out of work because of X policy is and always has been a political fear tactic that stymies technological innovation and progress in favor of pushing old outdated shit that just happens to make a small number of people a huge amount of money.

There is so much work to be done fighting climate change that we could easily replace every job lost.

But the economy will have to de-grow sooner or later. It is isnt an option. Sustainability is not a choice, it is an inevitability.

Americans truly are a different species

Rolling coal is one of the most mindbogglingly stupid things I’ve ever heard of. Truly, it makes it seem like Idiocracy didn’t go nearly far enough in their hyperbole. Nobody could’ve predicted people being this aggressively dumb.

Actually if everything else was fixed we could probably still allow things like monster truck rallies etc right?

wtf is this ? a locomotive ?

From Lemminary’s link

An increasingly popular phenomenon at the time of the incident, coal rolling happens when a driver of a diesel truck floods the engine with more fuel than it can efficiently process, emitting a thick black plume of exhaust across the road. The emissions systems of diesel trucks are strictly regulated under federal law. But some truck owners modify their exhaust systems with illegal aftermarket parts, or fail to fix broken exhaust systems. In the 2010s, rolling coal became a kind of defiant act, an aggressive backlash against the increasing regulation of fossil fuels. People using forms of transportation that don’t burn oil—namely, those riding bikes, walking, or driving an electric vehicle—became targets. Social media apps such as TikTok helped drive the #rollingcoal trend. Videos with captions like “POV: You roll coal on every bicycle you see,” showing the engorged tailpipe of a diesel truck expelling a bubbling smoke, accrued thousands, even millions of views.

They want that mad max life style

Can you list the consequences or are you just giving soundbites?

What exactly are the consequences in this case?

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I know it’s a weird take, but some of these people also seem obsessed with their cars, to the point they use it as a fashion accessory and a way to interact with people.

So they know if climate change becomes more popular, they risk people losing interest in their expensive toy, because they can’t rev their engine anymore to assert their “alpha male” status. Reving their engine will actually push people away

I think part of climate change acceptance is finding people other hobbies honestly

Often the issue isn’t recycling. Under capitalism, it’s not profitable. This is the issue.

Hey you know which energy sources also have lots of unsolved issues with waste disposal and pollution? Fossils.

Lol, ever seen a coal disposal plant? Not even nuclear disasters look as bad as your average coal disposal plant. Any green or even “green” solution is leagues better than our current fossil infrastructure.

Also way to pick some of the worse solutions, windmills are generally just bad and e-cars are largely just car companies going “car bad for life on earth? No…it’s not…na~ah…see! Totally good now! :)”, it’s quite literally kicking a can down the road, or rather hiding from the gaze of the rich.

The problem with cars isn’t necessarily that they’re dirty, it’s that we have soo god damn fucking many of em EVERYWHERE, which amplifies all of their small issue to such a degree it makes it a leading cause of emissions among others issues. Like once we get to car infrastructure, that’s when it really takes a nose dive. It’s a wonder anything still even works…

In case of solar panels, it’s honestly not that bad, once we cut back the elephant in the room, makes plenty of space of solar production. Also nuclear should be the end all be all, and don’t give me no shit about waste storage, countries like Finland are volunteering to be used as storage, because it generates business for em. As long as you don’t store it in an old salt mine (like what the actual fuck were the Germans thinking there???), again it’s not that bad, especially compared to the elephant in the room… I’d prompt ya to look at a coal disposal plant again.

There’s a massive amount of ongoing research into lithium-free batteries. Sodium-ion has gotten a big boost recently and real solid-state batteries are starting to see commercialization.

There is no recycling of oil refineries either. So that argument is useless. Everything breaks down.

Don’t let perfection be the enemy of good.

“Peak oil” has been predicted for decades, and they just keep finding more and more oil.

I’ll raise one point on this. Peak Oil isn’t just a question of the gross quantity of existing oil, its about the cost of extracting a new barrel relative to the demand for that barrel. It is possible we can reach a moment in history when the value-add of a burning a gallon of light sweet crude is lower than the cost to extract it. We’ve already functionally passed that point for coal (which is why we’ve basically given up mining it, despite enormous reserves continuing to exist).

The BP Horizon spill is a great example of the consequences of “Peak Oil” as a practical concern. The Horizon rig was only economically viable because of the triple-digit price on oil, going into the late '00s. It was a largely experimental construction, given the offshore depth of the extraction with costs to match, signaling a depletion of “safer” inland wells. And the liabilities it generated (both directly from the spill and indirectly from political reforms instated afterwards and insurance demanded for future rigs) dwarfed the revenue it produced.

There’s still oil in the well Horizon had drilled and we could still conceivably build another rig to go back and keep mining it. But we won’t, because the costs exceed the expected revenues. If we ever see $200-300 bbl gasoline, a business might have the monetary incentive to return. But if wind/solar/nuclear become a cost-efficient replacement, there will never been an economic incentive to rebuild on that patch. We will have passed the point at which oil extraction makes financial sense.

Right on. No matter how well meaning people may be, if we misunderstand the issues then we’re unlikely to craft working solutions.

The only comment I would add to yours is that local economies are interconnected with the global marketplace. If the price of oil goes up overseas, domestic producers will increase their prices too. Additionally, the cost of energy is baked into the price of imported goods. Even if a country were completely energy independent, a spike in the price of energy on the global markets would increase price of just about everything at home.

I just learned so much in such a short amount of time. Thanks for taking the time to drop some knowledge.

They’ve been convinced that climate change is a hoax. Nobody realistically knows how to fix people’s beliefs about this.

Well the problem is that the solution is unthinkable. Most people, not just fascists but also liberals, parrot certain ingrained dogma that has been programmed into them. They are deathly scared of regulating or nationalizing news or social media and want to abdicate government power to the seemingly neutral market. Meanwhile PR agencies and think tanks deliberately crafted and spread the climate hoax lie, and that side is where the money is.

The tankies, the people previously known as socialists, know precisely what to do about this shit. Except their system is ruled by the same calculus of power and wealth. So you’d need to deliberately choose a system that will be less liberal to fix climate change and propaganda by the capital.

If OPEC limits production the prices will go up, but that means more profit will flow to the US. Assuming this is meant for a US audience, that’s obviously a good thing for their economy.

This is the only part I’d take issue with. Profits will be good for the oil companies but so many products will be affected by the price increase that this would be terrible for consumers. We’re already seeing that in food prices as transportation costs (oil) are affecting them.

I’d like to add that a lot of these people work in the oil or coal industry or have family members who do. The work, as dangerous and comparatively ill paying as it may be, may be the only thing that puts their town on the map and keeps food on the table. Not seeing a way out for those who can’t or won’t be retained for another job can be pretty scary, a fear that is very much preyed a upon by conservatives.

The sad part is, some small towns with single employers like coal mining towns will probably become ghost towns as part of the transition. There’s really not many ways to transition a local economy rapidly enough to save the town. And with coal mining in particular, the skillset needed to work in the mines is not necessarily a skillset that will translate well into other fields, at least not in the time the towns will have between the mine closure and everyone leaving for greener pastures

We’re already at the point that renewables are far cheaper than the alternatives. It’s just the capital costs that are higher (compared to keeping existing FF), but that’s not a huge issue for rich, developed countries.

So rich countries can massively invest in renewables and press their advantage. Ideally, these rich countries also subsidise renewable energy in developing countries (and to some extent, they are). But even without that in many cases it’s cheaper to just skip building a whole FF industry altogether and go straight to renewables.

If only all the countries could come to some kind of climate energy agreement. Maybe they can meet someplace like oh say Paris or something and sign an agreement like that. 🤔

It’s just long term vs. short term thinking really. And the question of who pays.

It costs an insane amount of money to have wars to secure the oil supply. But it’s not the oil industry that pays that cost. So oil is only “cheaper” from a very limited context, but in a broader context, it’s insanely expensive.

From an economic perspective, investing money into the infrastructure needed to eliminate dependency on oil is a no brainer. It’ll probably cost less than the next oil war, and once that cost is paid, there is no need for multiple future oil wars.

Given the US pays for most of the costs of oil wars, you’d think the US would be leading the charge towards transitioning off of oil. But instead there’s a lot of resistance in the US for this. There’s a strange denial that leads people to simultaneously demand the government to make gas cheaper, while also being against wars in the middle east. How do people think the government makes the price of gas cheaper?

Speakers with specially designed amplification spaces and vibrators attached to the frame.

Obviously.

Yeah this is the answer right here. The fossil fuel industry and their conservative allies (as well as far too many liberal politicians) have been feeding into a propaganda machine that has been fear-mongering climate change policies, telling the public continually that all those policies are going to do nothing but raise the price of gas or remove some convenience they have. I remember that time when Republicans were fear-mongering that the Democrats were coming after people’s gas stoves, as if that was something that was even remotely likely. It was so fucking stupid but people were like “You can’t take my stove!!!” like a bunch of dumb shits. I remember one dingus on Fox News who strapped himself to his gas stove like there was a demolition team coming to his house to take it down any minute as an idiotic publicity stunt. Literally no one but the drones who watch Fox News cared.