Source?
What the hell did I miss this time?
That’s the problem with platforms that offshoot for free speech reasons.
I want to be able to say eat the rich and luigi magione was right.
Others want to spout hate in all forms.
Then people begin to argue these are the save of you should tolerate intolerance. Which you should never do
I want to be able to say eat the rich and luigi magione was right.
You can. !luigimangione@lemmy.world & !eattherich@lemmy.world
You just can’t advocate for violence.
That seems like a contradictory statement
Also read this instances TOS and it is pretty lame. I have particular issue with no war footage. If you are in a democratic nation that is either in a war or funding a war you should see it’s results for what it is. War is ugly and hiding that is a great disservice to the world
But I suppose the advantage of lemmy is I can simply find an instance not afraid to share those and still have access to this one
Honestly I don’t entirely disagree. But it is a very… nuanced situation.
I think there’s a layer of subjectivity that protects us from getting banned from LW. Things like “free Luigi” and “Luigi did nothing wrong” are fine because they’re not directly advocating for violence. But you can’t say X, Y, or Z should get murdered. I think that’s the line.
I moderate both of those subs but honestly I think I’d agree with you, .world was not the best place to create those communities.
Sorry for the random question but I’m pretty new to the whole lemmy/fediverse thing.
If I’m signed up through lemmy world and someone shares something like this in a different server will I still see it in my feed? Or would I need an account elsewhere.
If browsing all posts and if lemmy.world is “federated” with that server then yes.
But I don’t think that’s very likely.
I see, thank you for the reply. Guess it’d probably be worth spreading out a couple different accounts then.
You can subscribe to communities in other servers directly from 1 account. Only exception is if that server isn’t federated
This is a lemm.ee account and I’m commenting here
I’ve always been intolerant of intolerance
Shit
Can someone recommend me a new instance and how to move my account?
Dbzer0 is cool, too, AFAIK
This is true!
You can’t move your account but you can have multiple acounts with the same name if they’re not on the same instance. In the Voyager app you can stay logged into more than one at the same time. Also you can check out most instances without creating an account so I’d suggest taking a look yourself to see what you like. You can find a list with filter options here.
They wanted to be Reddit again and boy are they still trying to do that.
If everyone from reddit moves over then it will be reddit
The left is getting killed on the trans sports issue (which I believe is a completely manufactured issue) because we haven’t talked about it enough to iron out a reasonable position.
The general pop is not accepting of trans people in professional sports. I don’t think that will change anytime soon but trans people playing school sports is far more accepted and I think its a much more convincing to fight on the issue of trans people participating in school sports for fun and social reasons. It draws away from the shit narrative that trans people are trying to compete at the highest level and I don’t think anyone can reasonably argue against it since casual sport commonly mixes gender.
Trigger Warning: Get a pack of Kleenex and load your favorite Daily Wire playlists to have handy, because this is not going to be a light read for a self-proclaimed intelligent centrist.
The left is getting killed on the trans sports issue
Do you have any data backing this? And what analysis goes with the data?
Don’t let me be misunderstood: Rights are not defined by majorities, otherwise you could have a white majority voting on the humanity of black people, and wolves voting on the right of sheep not to be eaten.
On the other hand, the public’s views are heavily conditioned by misanthropic, anti-democratic propaganda, that shifts the window of acceptable discourse, and excludes people from a set of fundamental freedoms that cisgender people take for granted. As a consequence, the ubiquitous genocidal discourse against trans lives, if left unchecked leads (and this is by now not a prediction but a historical fact) to erosion of rights of women, blacks, indigenous, disabled, and every other citizen. Because these freedoms are not “special” to trans people, but are mere extension of legal scholarship and the rule of law. The ongoing American fascism is not an overreach of “legitimate concerns” but it is profoundly, structurally embedded in challenging the legitimacy of trans people. This is why TERFism was initially deemed “unworthy of respect” by British courts: because it goes against TONS of legal precedent.
Long story short, in the times of “Der Stürmer” you could have said that the majority of German did not think Jews should be married to Germans. So what? So much for the argument that we should sacrifice human rights of ANY group because they are unpopular.
ALL protections exist so that UNPOPULAR groups enjoy the rights that the majorities take for granted. Outside that logic there is only fascism.
It is much like segregation (which, surprise, is coming back again) and apartheid: The Feelings of uneasy white people sharing bathrooms and sports with black people, are of no importance whatsoever, because, simply, segregation is dehumanizing and unjust.
By extension, what you suggest is morally corrupt and inhumane, and it is deeply fascist in its very conception.
Now, we are arriving at the data. Bear with me.
You people hand-wave a fucking lot when you suggest that trans rights are so unpopular that they have lost you elections, when there have been multiple arguments that Democrats barely touched on the topic, apart from being loosely against killing trans people in pogroms and LUKEWARM at that. So your argument amounts to little more than “Fascist discourse is more trendy so let’s do that instead”, which is not JUST the Ratchet effect: it is “being complicit to actual genocide”.
So you HAND-WAVE about an IMAGINARY regular person (who is that fucking nazi?) to whom we must bow under all circumstances? Fuck that populist tactics, and fucking educate people.
But does this IMAGINARY nazi-enabling regular Joe even exist?
And what studies you cite for him not being able to revise being a shit person
Views differ even more widely along party lines. For example, eight-in-ten Democrats say they favor laws or policies that would protect trans individuals from discrimination, compared with 48% of Republicans. Conversely, by margins of about 40 percentage points or more, Republicans are more likely than Democrats to express support for laws or policies that would do each of the following: require trans athletes to compete on teams that match the sex they were assigned at birth (85% of Republicans vs. 37% of Democrats favor); make it illegal for health care professionals to provide someone younger than 18 with medical care for a gender transition (72% vs. 26%); make it illegal for public school districts to teach about gender identity in elementary schools (69% vs. 18%); require transgender individuals to use public bathrooms that match the sex they were assigned at birth (67% vs. 20%); and investigate parents for child abuse if they help someone younger than 18 get medical care for a gender transition (59% vs. 17%).
Which is from Pew which others like you like to point to as a general “trans rights unpopular with our voter base”, but if you actually read you will see that you can even find a small percentage of Republicans that are not vehemently against trans rights. And let’s not forget that the percentage of Democrats against trans rights would be very much different if Democrat’s media outlets weren’t fucking complicit in amplifying genocidal “gender critical” misanthropy, and there weren’t a score of fucking “leftist” intellectuals adopting their talk points, when there was ZERO voice given to the marginalized trans scholarship. So, this consent you talk to is manufactured by complicit Democrats to start with.
You would not make this argument unless you wanted to appeal to the Republican voter base, but doing so only shows that it is voter trends that guide your politics and not principles, and in fact, you are willing to enable crimes against humanity to appeal to a fascist voter base. This is unscrupulous and misanthropic.
Instead of succumbing to extremely well-funded racist and nazi propaganda, a principled political advocate with such means and resources as the Democrats could help alleviate what is a systematic attack to decent society and inclusive democracy. Therefore, your advocacy ultimately paints the Democrats as a manufactured opposition, and essentially a fascist party, once it does not stand for human rights, as it never were.
Centrists should be actively considered agitator agents for fascism at this point. Like, have you clowns even considered that your voter base might want you to grow a fucking spine and stand up for human rights, with trans rights front and center? Because I only see your democratic voter base being alienated by your flirt with fascism.
because this is not going to be a light read for a self-proclaimed intelligent centrist. What a strange opener? I’ve never claimed this. I have a feeling this entire comment is going to be attacking positions I did not mention and views I do not hold.
“The left is getting killed on the trans sports issue” Do you have any data backing this? And what analysis goes with the data?
Yes, source - pew research 66% of adults are against trans people in sports. This and other anti trans sentiment are up from 2017. Now the analysis that goes with that is i’ve watched a ton of online debate (which influences the opinions of all who view it) from the largest politcal and non politcal content creators for the past decade and there is a clear weaponization of trans issues. The reason these issues are being weaponized is because the right know that they can “win” debates on these issues. The arugments they use are not at all convincing in my opinion but they seem to sway the average person.
you could have said that the majority of German did not think Jews should be married to Germans. So what? So much for the argument that we should sacrifice human rights of ANY group because they are unpopular.
No you do not understand. I’ll play on the example. If I had said that majority of Germans did not think Jews should marry Germans. I would be aruging that we need to convince majority of Germans that it is ok for Jews to marry germans by finding a argument that is strong.
By extension, what you suggest is morally corrupt and inhumane, and it is deeply fascist in its very conception.
What do you think im suggesting? I really do not think you at all understand what im suggesting. You’re a .ml user so maybe you think that trying to present a convincing argument in favor of trans rights is morally corrupt.
You people hand-wave a fucking lot when you suggest that trans rights are so unpopular that they have lost you elections, when there have been multiple arguments that Democrats barely touched on the topic, apart from being loosely against killing trans people in pogroms and LUKEWARM at that. So your argument amounts to little more than “Fascist discourse is more trendy so let’s do that instead”, which is not JUST the Ratchet effect: it is “being complicit to actual genocide”.
Who is “you people”? I did not suggest that trans rights were so unpopular that they caused democrats to lose the election. I suggested that they were an issue that the right used to attack the left with great success (I know it was successful because they managed to shift public opinion significantly in a 4 year period). Even you claim that Democrats barely touched the topic, why do you think that was?
So your argument amounts to little more than “Fascist discourse is more trendy so let’s do that instead”, which is not JUST the Ratchet effect: it is “being complicit to actual genocide”.
No this is not my argument. Its not even remotely close.
I’ve responded to enough of this comment. It makes no sense, it might be AI slop and the people who upvoted it should be ashamed.
Who gives a shit about what is happening in non-professional sports anyways? It’s kids having fun. Puppies chasing a ball. It is the least important thing on the planet.
Republicans want trans people banned from playing in sports, this includes school sports. It was a major focus for their election marketing. Republicans used the example of Trans people playing in sports at the highest level. In these debates left winger pundits failed to present convincing arguments compared to the right wing pundits because the focus was on top 0.00001% of athletes where biological differences could be seen as unfair.
Because of this, the majority of Americans (66% of adults) now believe trans people should not play in gendered sports.
I am suggesting that instead of running from the discussion, we can respond and present a convincing argument on why trans people SHOULD be allowed to play in gendered sports.
My suggestion for a more convincing argument is that we focus on school sports because they precisely “kids having fun” and no reasonable person would fight to remove a 12 year old from playing with her friends on the netball team. Except this is exactly what is happening in some places and at threat of happening nationwide.
Jesus Christ, just let private sports organizations sort it out between themselves, their participants, and their audience. Why should this be the government’s problem when everything’s on fire and there’s microplastics in our brains and lungs? I mean really, this isn’t hard stuff. People are people, let them have their rights. If you don’t want them to have their rights because you don’t like one of several groups they’re a part of (likely without any say in the matter)? You might be a shitbag.
You don’t like that the NHL decides not to be trans inclusive (fuck idk, did they)? Write em a nastygram and pull your subscription. You don’t like that they decided to be trans inclusive? Maybe stop being such a fucking piece of shit, but nobody’s holding a gun to your head, unsubscribe and send them your tear-stained letter about how it ruined your life. This is a niche issue that people can work out between themselves without the stupid government inserting itself into the middle of things.
Who are you arguing against? I’m pro trans. I’m not I’m favour of government deciding this. But the government has decided to take away this right and now that forces people to fight (rhetorically) to restore it. I’m only making the case on how I think this subject should be approached.
If you want to go and arguing trans people in pro sports again go ahead but the right loves that. Its the only position where they have an argument.
I’m saying that should be the position: “unlike the republicans, we want a government small enough that it isn’t micromanaging how sports organizations run themselves. We believe that the organizations, their members, and their audience are competent adults who can work out their rules for themselves.”
Ok I understand now, thanks
It’s a non issue. Professional and high level competitive sports like international council and Olympics addressed this YEARS ago. With data and research to support their current positions and recommendedations.
Its a non issue but its still something on peoples minds thanks to right wingers constantly bringing it up and writing policy on it. Normally id say its fine to ignore it but since they’ve written policy on it left wingers need to reverse that and get protections in place.
Hopefully in my part of the world the challenges based on discrimination and rights violation go through. Once that reinforces that no, you can’t do these things, it becomes a closed topic.
I think the issue is just a distraction to split people. It reminds me of that one episode from IASIP. It also reminds me of bikeshedding. Like how many people are even trans athletes who rank high enough for this to even matter? Like 1 or 2? It feels like a disproportionate amount of interest to discuss something so trivial.
Yes it was a distraction but its enshrined in law now. Its also still being used as a wedge issue. Yes there is almost no trans people competing at a high level but thay doesnt matter to most people. The right will blast the example over and over and over forcing people on the left to defend it. Its better to not defend it and to instead talk about participation in school sports (which is what the law actually impacts). I’m only suggesting engaging the topic became we need to convince people that repealing the law is a good thing and enshrining protections is even better.
You can’t give an inch is the issue. Not only because we’re talking about fundamental human rights (trans people should just accept not being permitted to engage in sports?) but because it only shifts the Overton window onto the next thing with arguments now strengthened by capitulation.
If you permit transphobes the position that trans women are dangerous in sports it becomes easier to point to that and say “see, they are also dangerous in [new domain of contention], the progressives even agree!
My point is that you arent giving up on that point you’re avoiding it. Its not a popular point and if you try to argue it you lose in the minds of the average person. By avoiding the issue and talking about stronger examples like Trans people being humans who want to play sport to make friends and have fun you get a much stronger position to argue from.
I usually point out that the Olympics have allowed trans contenders since 2004, and if it was the cheat code it’s asserted to be, the entire Chinese and Russian teams would be trans people. That usually gets people thinking “huh, maybe this is some bull”
That’s another good point!
My issue is that that is a good argument and should be convincing it doesnt convince people. When they hear that they hand wave it then get swayed by a more emotional argument of a random example of a trans women doing well in a sport. I’ve been watching how right wingers do media and there is a tatic i think should be co op’d. Basically if they try and say “trans people shouldnt be allowed in sports because a trans boxer broke someones nose” You just completely ignore that and say “the legislation prevented a trans person from playing in causal after school netball team how the fuck is that fair.” Then hopefully they take the bait and response to what you’ve said and everyone watching forgets the 1st point and hangs on the 2nd point which is fair easier to defend because it makes sense to people emotionally.
You can’t logically argue your way out of bigotry. They don’t care whether they’re actually correct or not about trans issues. They already wanted to harm us and remove us from society where possible, and will find any reason to do so. See: the bathroom debates.
I’d rather people just stood up for us at all than act like they need to make good points in order for us to exist. You’re all playing kickball and we’re the ball.
Its not about presenting a logical argument. I think at this point we’ve seen that doesnt work. Its about presenting an emotionally convincing argument. Shifting the focus to causal sports is more likely to convince the average person that its fine. This does two things it prevents the conversation shifting to extreme examples and it plants the seed for conversations about trans participation in competitive sport.
I didn’t realize there was much of a culture difference between the instances. Is this written down anywhere?
There’s some that are quite clearly different than most. hexbear is probably one of the most notorious. lemmy.ml, while commonly associated with hexbear, still has a clearly different vibe from hexbear.
But with regards to toleration of transphobia, there’s certainly variation with regards to moderation, which means certain instances have much more widespread transphobia than others. Similarly differences exist with regards to other forms of bigotry, such as some instances tolerating pretty overt misogyny with regards to the bear vs man in a forest topic while others used it as a chance to ban a lot of people they didn’t want in their communities. Some see their instances more like a small community to hang out with friends and others see their instance more as a public forum open to anyone.
Lemmy.world for some reason seems to both have a lot of ban-happy mods, regularly being mentioned in places like PTBs, yet somehow is also known for tolerating transphobia.
Apparently at least one person associates the instance I’m posting from with people who just want reddit (unsurprising given the name it would appeal to such) and the person claimed to assume I was being transphobic somehow because of the instance I was on (I think they missed a word like “not” or something that drastically changed the meaning).
Imo, blahaj has a lot more similar feel to reddit trans communities than a lot of the other trans communities on the fediverse.
I don’t normally pay attention to what instance communities or posters are from, so I don’t really have much direct opinion and more just see second-hand opinions.
I first noticed the issue with .world when discussion of Luigi was censored there in December. That’s why I’m not on there any more. They’re too eager to toe the line and appear corpo friendly like reddit.
The admins influence the culture of their instances a lot more than they would like to admit.
Fair, but I have to admit, it’s kind of hard to figure out.
Not really. And that’s because anybody who would write it down recognizes that they’re going to get piled on.
Yeah, I’m new-ish and I don’t yet know the various instance “cultures.” Hopefully picking blahaj wasn’t a mistake, lol.
The admin is great and doesn’t put up with nonsense. Downvotes are disabled, which took some getting used to. I have never regretted my choice of instance. Very queer-friendly and I like the people as a whole. Welcome, hope you love it.
Thanks!
Blahaj is pretty good. I think you don’t get a downvote option there which I don’t quite understand but the people are chill.
I was wondering about downvotes since I saw people mentioning them, but don’t see the option to do that myself. That explains it.
We should all block Lemmy.world unless they get their act together.
There are a few instances I wish mine would unblock, but world is not one of them
I do like the friendly vibe of Beehaw!
As long as it’s the user doing it, not instances.
If the instance allows it, then the instance is doing it.
But the user is choosing, to, not the instance.
It’s up to the instances to keep their communities safe for everyone.
This is why having different instances is great. If I feel like one is too heavy-handed with blocking others, I can just use another one that isn’t and choose what I want to block.
It’s such a cesspool over there
Spoiler: they won’t.
Lemmy.world is a a full on trash bag when it comes to those sorts of comments. And some people tried to tell me I was overreacting or lying about it (in specific reference to the 196 push that they failed at, yet still post to to try and garner new subs).
People really want free speech until they don’t.
If someone’s being a prick, just clown on them. They are entitled to speak their opinion, regardless of how stupid it is. Social ostracization will always be worse than anything moderation can do anyways.
The tolerant must not tolerate the intolerant
This is a clown shit comment, so I’m gonna clown on it. You are a clown. 🤡
That works while there’s enough people. If they outnumber the ones doing the clowning, it starts working the opposite way.
Removed by mod
so please leave any politics
You say, as you wade in to a topic that only exists for political reasons, and is actively driven and sustained entirely for political reasons
common ada w
Ada and Smorks are the best!
Mixed teams, weight classes, a handicap system. These issues have been solved before the word transgender was even invented. And for some sports a natural advantage is just how it goes. I’ve never heard anyone propose banning tall people from playing basketball. Don’t get me wrong, I understand that what you said is the prevalent opinion and I don’t think it’s neccessarily coming from a bad place. But it’s misinformed and inherently political and I think it’s important to acknowledge that.
how do you guys think about sending woman with abnormally high testosterone to a mostly male team and vice versa?
This for example sounds viable to many people unfamiliar with the matter but in reality we might as well separate athletes by zodiac signs since testosterone levels just aren’t a reliable marker at all.
Another thing I see sometimes is the proposal of an all trans olympic alternative which among other things goes to show that people vastly overestimate the amount of trans athletes thanks to said politicisation.
This^ - as @ToxicWaste@lemm.ee noted - women and men are good at different things so I don’t see why we can’t require mixed gender teams with equal representation for pretty much all sports.
And if somebody cries “fOrCeD dIvErSiTy!!” then you never really cared about women’s participation in sports anyways.
i like that: just sports, not womens- or mens- or trans- or whatever- sports. but by which system do you stop an all males team identifying as women for the duration of a weightlifting competition?
i dont have a good answer. but i was hoping someone in the discussion has.
Many/most sports require trans women to have been on HRT for 12-24 months prior to the competition.
ok, that sounds better. does insurance pay for HRT where you are, or what does that cost you? generally i think doing sports should not be behind a paywall (except equipment, which is hard to circumvent).
but in that case, it may be the best thing available to prevent shenanigans like the linked story.
agreed, testosterone (or other hormones) are a flawed system for categorising competitors. so is weight class, as women generally have a higher body fat ratio. so is any system we can come up with. however what I categorize MYSELF as, is probably the worst system. trans people should, like any other person, be able to do sports. but to have competition we need a better system then people choosing their opponents.
so that is why i am asking what systems you guys suggest.
Trans-women are women who represent 0.2% of the population whom many are taking estrogen. You don’t care about regulating those with natural physical advantages in sports just with those who were often excluded from society as you want to keep hurting people for no reason.
obviously I care about those too. same as any steroids, PEDs, own-blood doping and whatever drugs, hormones or whatever they invent to increase performance. and stop crying for trans women. the example i mentioned was basically a trans woman with zero treatment. even if he was an obvious troll.
the whole argument is about having a reasonably fair and therefore interesting competition.
name checks out
They come into our community and start arguing against our rights.
