If you’re going to try to cite a claim, please don’t just drop the Wikipedia pages on the subjects. In fact, don’t cite Wikipedia at all.

One problem I see is that people feel like they have to work in absolutes or match their opinions 100% with everything within a group. How the grouping forms is not always clear, but apparently if one is associated with that grouping, they feel the need to defend everything in that grouping and attacking everything that isn’t.

There is some discussion to be had in the role of the US using proxies to undermine global rivals, but that does not justify Russia invading Ukraine, nothing does. Absolutely, fuck Russia.

It’s not saying that both sides are bad? You sure about that one, chief?

I think you missed my point, entirely. I wasn’t saying that governments committing atrocities in other countries versus their own people were any different, morally speaking.

Then why say “their own people”? It doesn’t make sense. Parent didn’t use that qualifier. Maybe you used it because it is so often used in combination with the other terms? Either way, I am singling out this qualifier because it is a way that PR and propagandistic terms color our thinking. It does not mean I think you were being malicious.

I was simply pointing out that the quality of life for the working class, and low amount of wealth disparity, etc in this country is largely due to Socialist policies keeping Capitalism in check, and also pointing out that Capitalist policies cause atrocities, in general.

But these countries don’t have socialist policies! They are capitalist countries run by capitalists and capitalist parties. I already described the causes behind their social safety nets.

This was in response to the comment saying that countries were hiding atrocities behind the banner of Socialism.

I understand. I actually interpreted parent as being critical of the Eastern bloc, but I didn’t comment on this.

Atrocities of any kind are abhorrent and I agree that they need to be denounced.

I agree in the abstract sense but just like with “their own people”, what gets called an atrocity, how its veracity is established, and how often it enters discourse are all subject to the propaganda we are all immersed in. In addition, the context in whicj atrocities are “denounced” matters. Were the people tallying up lists of Saddam’s crimes in 2003 just denouncing atrocities like good, empathetic humans? Were they not helping to build consent for a much worse invasion? What about the US’ genocidal sanctions on the country for the prior decade plus? We, of course, do not live in a vacuum and what we are told to denounce is often aligned with ruling class agendas.

The overall topic of this thread is that baby leftists want to keep criticizing and denouncing the targets of US empire that they are told to hate. They have not engaged critically with the denunciations themselves and when others do so they begin insulting and deflecting. And they certainly don’t exist within any project to actually achieve anything against atrocities, because if they did they would be laser-focused on their own country where they can do actual organizing work, which will largely be in the US and Europe.

As an example of liberals’ having their attention to atrocities dictated by think tanks and imperialist media, we can look to Yemen. I could not get liberals to care about the US-backed bombing campaigns and US blockade of Yemen. Schoolbuses bombed, weddings bombed, basic civilian infrastructure bombed out to attack food, water, and electricity. Aid rotting on ships because the US prevented them from docking and unloading for 8+ months. Nobody even talked about Yemen in the US or Europe. Not regularly. You don’t see lemmy.worlders bringing it up all the time as atrocities you should denounce every time the topic of the US itself comes up. Every time target countries of US empire are mentioned, hiwever, it is time for kneejerk denunciation ans bad faith insults at anyone with a modicum of understanding of geopolitics.

I also agree with pretty much everything else that you said. Socialism is near dead and dying in Europe.

It’s gone. It fell with the USSR and then NATO-led balkanization of Yugoslavia. Europe is capitalist.

I just think that the sprinkle of Social policies that is left in the EU still holds back Capitalism from being quite as horrible as it could be.

I might agree but I frame it differently. The social policies remain because they are too popular to remove, but capitalism is eating away at them from multiple directions. Privatization is everywhere, as are benefit cuts to siphon into militarization. The latter is only possible due to fearmongering over Russia. But more dangerously, European countries oppress the left, such as banning communist parties or even expressions of solidarity with Palestine. That results in “the discourse” being dominated by liberald and protofascists. But the liberals are presiding over declines in conditions due to capitalism, so when they lose popularity, protofascists gain it. This will produce repeated one-two punches of austerity, dismantling social programs, and scapegoating marginalized people. And all while the US drains Europe’s industrial base. Europe’s utility as a forward base against the USSR is gone and they are now a bloodbag for US’ vampires.

Nazis executing civilians is bad. Partisans executing civilians is bad. A bad action is bad no matter the intention.
Insert some quote about how the history is filled with good intentions.

Tell the ‘unlawful’ killed that it’s ok, it was a growing power who haven’t attacked someone for a long time and just tries to lift your country out of poverty that bombed you to bits not the cashking warmongerer, and see if they agree with your reasoning.

See, that’s the issue.
Pointing at state A and saying it’s bad invokes the response “Well B is by far more bad, if you look at contextualized extent, impact, and level of badness!” thus down playing the bad state A has done.

It’s like, A hit X with a fist, but B hit Y with a bat, twice and on the shins, so what A did isn’t so bad actually. Instead of just admitting hitting is wrong.

The dying empire continues to lash out and pax americana is a myth.

Whoosh

“Everything is very good, actually”

Ignores the point of my comment

Hyperfocuses on one tiny detail

.ml username

What a shock.

“Neighbor” was never an important detail, and only someone struggling to string together some type of deflection from the point would focus so deeply on it. The point, as is abundantly clear to anyone with a couple of braincells to rub together, is that these countries are doing that now, as in at this moment, and are targeting civilians, which the person in responding to gladly ignored with their “but no, everyone says Russia is bad” bullshit.

And you have the gall to accuse me of making a bad faith argument. Once again, pathetic.

I absolutely love the part where you guys are all so vocal about “but the US did this and this” but have literally nothing to say about @mydude@lemmy.world up there acting like Russia and North Korea are perfect little saints while actively trying to wipe out civilians.

Just Tankie Things™️

Russia and Iran are the only reasons Assad remained in power, where he gassed his own citizens with chemical weapons and tortured, murdered, and jailed political opponents or anyone suspected being as much.

It seems to be a recurring theme with your shit countries. Threatening the world with nukes, instating the world’s worst and most oppressive dictatorships, arming African warlords to exploit gold mines to prop up your shitty nazi landgrab war, building bases on land that doesn’t belong to you and you weren’t invited too, and the list goes on and on.

Yeah but those people aren’t white so it doesn’t count