- cross-posted to:
- privacy@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- privacy@lemmy.ml
- Travelers can opt out of facial recognition at US airports by requesting manual ID verification, though resistance or intimidation may occur.
- Facial recognition poses privacy risks, including potential data breaches, misidentification, and normalization of surveillance.
- The Algorithmic Justice League’s “Freedom Flyers” campaign aims to raise awareness of these issues and encourage passengers to exercise their right to opt out.
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If you already have a passport and opt out of facial recognition, you’re only deluding yourself into a false sense of privacy. In fact, if you enter the screening area at all in an airport, you are kidding yourself if you think you can maintain some semblance of privacy. The government knows what you look like. Calm down and move on with your life.
Fuck calming down. That’s how we got into this mess in the first place. People are to complacent with privacy. Anyone that thinks this attitude won’t lead to terrible things is a fool.
You’re never going to live in a world where you’re allowed to fly without photo id amigo.
I don’t know but have you ever taken a domestic flight? Or even a Schengen one? Open border policy woks wonders for data security and also quality of life in general
You’re never going to live in a world where you’re allowed to fly without photo id amigo
Move to a different country.
Eg in Australia I can book a domestic ticket and have two interactions after that:
- x-ray/security where they scan my carry on
- boarding at the gate where they scan my pass.
No photo ID - or any ID really - needed. Now there’s enough dribs and drabs of information when I book the ticket and etc etc that they can identify me, but there’s nothing stopping someone from booking a ticket for someone else under their name.
Wait are you really arguing Australia as a privacy and security IMPROVEMENT on three rest of western countries?
It sounds like it is an improvement for domestic flights. I don’t see anything that invalidates that argument…
Yes, but Cinnabon doesn’t need to scan my face while I’m there. Every little bit helps.
That’s a strawman, who said otherwise? Showing ID is one thing, storing your ID and tracking your trips is another.
You really don’t think your trip can’t be tracked?
Is that what I said? No. Of course it can be and is tracked. But I’m not going to Hand over my biometrics and make it easier for them.
Exactly. If they need it, they can issue a lawful order, and that has certain prerequisites here in the US. I’m guessing international airports have special rules, but I’m only going to hand over what I’m legally obligated to and force them to dance around my 4th amendment rights or face a lawsuit.
That’s not what the other user is saying - we have to fight to keep what rights we have, and maybe one day gain some of the ones we lost
Their message is correct but they’re mad at that “calm down” part and addressed it poorly
User 1: if you fly using a passport, the government knows what you look like, whether or not you opt out of facial recognition, being a Karen at the airport won’t help with you
User 2: Fuck that, if we are complacent, more privacy will be taken away from us
User 3: You can’t fly without a photo id
Seems to me the user you responded to knows what they are saying, and you’re both right. You don’t have a right to fly on an airplane without a legal verification of who you are. We should have a right to verify our identity without facial recognition software. But that happens with laws, not making scenes at airports
Honestly, we should have a right to fly w/o providing ID as well. I don’t need it to ride the bus or local train, and I don’t think I need it for a greyhound bus (if I pay w/ cash). I’ve heard you can maybe get away w/o ID on Amtrak, but their official policy says it’s required.
So why are airplanes so different? Fatalities per mile on airplanes are among the lowest of any form of transportation, so I highly doubt terrorism is a significant, statistically relevant factor here. I think they do it because they can, not because it actually helps reduce risk in any meaningful way. I don’t see any basis for needing an ID for any form of mass transit, you should only need it for driving to prove that you have the privilege to do so.
I really don’t understand why law enforcement is so infatuated with checking my ID…
won’t lead
I would say we are already seeing / have already seen bad things happening because of this complacency. Buf of course worse things will happen if we don’t take measures.
The reality is that the ship for that kind of privacy has shipped a long time ago. Like a hundred years ago. The reality is that the authorities know details about every single person that passes through an airport. You can’t get in or out without a passport/identification.
There is virtually no expectation to privacy at an airport. It’s a public place that is heavily monitored for good reason. And that fact isn’t hidden in the slightest. You are legally required to freely and honestly identify yourself to the authorities.
If this was at your local bus stop, then you’d have a point. But not at airports.
Also, the serious discussion about privacy should have started with the introduction of the smartphone. That’s when the conversation would have mattered and made a difference. But that ship has sailed.
For hundreds of years women couldn’t vote and minorities were categorically segregated. Things aren’t perfect for those groups now either but those ships had sailed and it was only because some people were vocal and outraged about it. If you’re not pissed off and making a little bit of a scene about what’s happening to human rights including privacy rights you’re part of the problem. If you see somebody protesting their picture in an airport security line, don’t be one of the sheep in the line saying hurry up buddy, you’re slowing us down. Tell the people around you he’s got every right to be upset about this. A bit of awareness and resistance is a good thing.
For hundreds of years women couldn’t vote and minorities were categorically segregated.
That’s a strawman analogy. We’re not talking about privacy as a whole. The discussion here is about the supposed right to privacy at, what amounts to, a government controlled entrance point into the country. You have to identify yourself no matter which technology is being used. There’s no anonymity at an airport (from the government). Whether it’s technology or a piece of paper, you are legally required to identify yourself.
I keep saying this over and over, but if you want to talk about digital privacy, focus your energy on smartphones and the internet. The impact for privacy violation and the impact for regaining privacy rights is the most effective there.
Only a subset of any population has any interaction with an airport and the privacy implications there are next to nothing (because there is no right to anonymity there).
The more you let a government stick high resolution 3d cameras in your face and shrug it off because you’ve already lost privacy the stronger their database becomes, the more complacent you become, the more willing you become to let them do it at the train station, the post office, the crosswalk, etc. The more willing you become to put your palm on their palm reader and retina in their retina scanner when they deploy that technology. I’m not dismissing better avenues to focus efforts, I’m acknowledging the increase in surveillance and potential for abuse in the absence of any proven benefit to the people that are allegedly protected by these changes.
I went vacationing in another country and it was kinda uncomfortable being scanned by cameras, then scanning my passport, then moving across country lines and getting cameras and another scanning of my passport.
The last time I flew they did this, but there was a huge sign that said photos are immediately deleted after verification…is this not true?
It’s discussed in the article. We can’t really be sure if they do, but they already store the measurements of your face along with other bits of metadata. They could reconstruct your face with it even without the photo. It’s a deceptive claim, because even if they throw away the camera video they still have your face for all intents and purposes.
Just for example, that’s an easy way to save just the biometric signature and have very few people question it.
Also, bureaucratic lies can be technically true. They copy the photo from the original device to a database, then delete the photo on the device. So it’s technically true the photo was immediately deleted, it’s just also copied and persisted forever. And a bureaucrat will proudly stand in front of you all day and tell you they deleted the photo, and they will sleep well that night with not any concern
isn’t politics and bureaucracy great.
Judge would declare that unlawful on the spot but without malicious intent whoever did it would have qualified immunity since a judge hasn’t already ruled on that specific case so it’s a wash.
Poison pill their data instead.
-
Generate a person
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Print it
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Scan it when asked for facial data
5. Get hand-picked by the TSA for involuntary colonoscopy
And that’s how you get free healthcare.
Upon searching your anus for potential contraband, we found a large hemoroid. Please contact your primary care physician.
Or just call Preparation H Raymond?
Do they bill you $40,000 for that diagnosis? Could be a new source of revenue for discount airlines
Since a lot of hemoroid cases are caused by the seat of the discount flights, it would be a solid business model.
Stupid privacy people. What’s the worst that could happen? A fascist coming into power next year who could misuse the data?
Minority Report
Stupid privacy people. What’s the worst that could happen? Surveillance companies that have already scoured the internet for photos of people to build a giant database of people?
It’s also not like they could ever use the hundreds of other cameras all over the airports. What would they do with all that data anyways?
Reflectacles are a really good idea if you’re going this route. They can ID you with just an eye scan, and this interferes with that.
They have you take your sunglasses off.
Get clear ones. Most (all?) of those security cameras use IR illumination to ID you, so you can have lenses that allow visible light through, but mess up IR scanning. I think you can get them w/ prescription lenses if you email the creator, so you can legitimately tell them you need your glasses to see (if you need a prescription, that is).
If the scan fails, they’ll just ask you to take them off.
Sure, and I’ll say I don’t consent to take them off, so they’ll need to verify me another way.
Then just ask to not be facial scanned. Last airport I went to had signs saying you could opt out.
Then you don’t need weird glasses either.
It’s about normalizing survellience, and the article also says this as an opinion further down in the text.
Everyone can see that we are going towards the society in black mirror, with social scores, and people being punished for not complying with rules of any kind. I’m glad I’m kind of old because the future will suck.
I refuse to go through the body scanners, but the last time I went through the airport there wasn’t anyone trying to opt-out. I seriously doubt if the radiation perv scanner doesn’t get people to do anything, this won’t either.
I seriously doubt if the radiation perv scanner doesn’t get people to do anything
You mean the backscatter X-ray units that have already been phased out 10 years ago?
The modern milimeter-wave scanners both do not reveal anything and do not use ionising radiation. If radiation is a concern to you, you really shouldn’t be flying at all to be honest. The dose you get up there is much higher than you’d get from an X-ray scanner, although it is still negligible.
Facial recognition poses privacy risks, including potential data breaches,
I know you’re using the acceptable legal term.
As a Cybersecurity person, the “potential” data breaches we talk about, today, are really pretty certain, at this point, in history.
We may work towards a collective genuine ‘potential’, where the breach might never happen, someday, with effort.
Turns chair around and sits straddling it like a cool youth mentor.
Y’alls faces at airports are definitely getting leaked on the dark web.
The good news is it might take enough years to leak that your appearance might happen to change in between.
Planes <<<<<< trains.
You’re too smart for this site. I too love taking trains across both the Pacific and Atlantic oceans!
I’d actually love to take some sort of sea train, underground tunnel or floating death wave train one day. It wouldn’t be relaxing, peaceful, or cheap. But it would be an adventure.
Hour vs. hour it’s the best form of transportation
You get more space, there’s no TSA, you don’t get charged for bringing luggage, you can carry on liquids, you get leg room, the wifi is decent.
But if I’m traveling a really far distance… For example, if I’m going from California to New York I’d rather go by plane. Going by train for that seems to be pretty horrible. America is in desperate need of a ground transportation that can get from California to New York quickly.
if I’m going from California to New York
Yup, that’s like 70-80 hours, depending on where in CA you’re leaving from. So you’ll be on that train for 3 days, and have to change trains 2-4 times. The plus side is that it’s cost-competitive w/ flying ($400-ish, vs $200-ish flying), but that’s for coach, so you’d spend those 3 days sleeping in a chair. If you want a sleeper room, that’s like $2k.
A direct flight would take 5-ish hours and cost $200-ish.
There’s a reason nobody rides trains in the US, and it’s because it takes way too long and it’s too expensive. It would be a fun experience, but not great if you’re using it for transportation.
If we put in a mag-lev system that averages 250 mph from station to station, an overnight sleeper train across the country becomes extremely attractive.
There is a sleeper train from Amsterdam to Vienna, last 2 / 3 years I checked it was sold out almost everyday. It seems like the perfect mode of transport
Agreed, but they’ll inevitably fuck those up too.
For distances >600km, flying is usually 4x-10x faster at a similar price. At least in and around Germany. I assume in the US trains compare way worse, also because the distances are way larger.
Examples: “Normal” example: Stuttgart (Germany) -> Amsterdam (Netherlands) Train: 11h 10min - 241€ Plane: 1h 20min - 225€
Best case scenario for train in Germany at around that distance (because there’s a direct connection): München -> Berlin Train: 3h 54min - 167€ Plane: 1h 5min - 226€
They are very much incomparable more so than they are comparable. Try taking a train over a sea or across a country like the US.
I find stupid to give away my biometric data to everyone asking for it just because I give it away once in exchange of my passport, but I guess that’s just me.
Dumbass article, if you go to an airport your face is all over the security cameras and the checkpoints delete your image immediately after scanning so they are the least of your worries.
the checkpoints delete your image immediately after scanning so they are the least of your worries.
I’m going to need a source on this bullshit lie.
Source: the signs on the device itself at an airport I saw last week, also the TSA website https://www.tsa.gov/digital-id
The photo is immediately deleted unless clear signage is posted ndicating that the checkpoint is undergoing testing as results may be retained for up to 24mo.
How do you know it is auto deleted?
What if it relies on specific personnel to actively purge the database? What if said personnel are poorly trained, low pay, exteme limited time, and simply does not care?
How likely does a TSA agent fall under all of those criteria? (Hint: very likely)
Edit: here’s the fucking clincher directly from their website
During periodic testing and development, TSA and DHS Office of Science and Technology (S&T) may retain passenger data for up to 24 months.
I am pretty sure I read somewhere that they plan to test this system for the next decade. So technically they don’t delete anything due to being a long as fuck period of “testing”.
Well if that is the case at your specific airport, you’d know because it would say as much on the sign. You know, like it says in the sentence immediately following the line you quoted.
That testing period, plus 24 months
“Normies” avoiding scanning their face is useless because the vast majority of them still use Instagram and other social media services full of surveillance
I’ve never posted any pictures of my face online. But I’m sure many data brokers have them. And some family members many years ago I’m sure posted some.
For international flights, US citizens can opt out but foreign nationals have to participate in face scanning, [with some exceptions]
I had no idea we were already at that point.
always wanted to visit the US. I guess that won’t happen then.
I refuse to participate in this dystopia. But I’m a little worried this will make me a recluse
Trust me you’re already a recluse relative to most by being on here. If you observe what passes for a “normal” “person” these days, they will endlessly scroll algorithmic ai-generated incomprehensible horrors on Tiktok, then purchase something through an ad from temu, they do not think. They are gone.
But once you stop worrying that you may be saying no to experiences too much purely on principle, then you’re free to go even further and eradicate surveillance capitalism influence from your life altogether. One day you can ascend to even go smartphone-free.
If you observe what passes for a “normal” “person” these days, they will endlessly scroll algorithmic ai-generated incomprehensible horrors on Tiktok, then purchase something through an ad from temu, they do not think.
Can you just like, not be so damn condescending and elitist? Literally saying people who use TikTok and purchase stuff from Temu are sub-human…
Yeah I’m sorry, I just feel pretty strongly about this I guess and Lemmy is one of the few safe places to vent to like-minded folks.
To explain myself a little: It’s not the “normies” that the techy people hate, it’s the perverted messed up world those less savvy in technology live in and everything about it, and with how much we’ve learned to circumvent corporate control it’s often a culture shock to see that people just take it, even stuff like online ads or algorithmic content feeds, stuff I haven’t experienced in probably a decade, like as if that’s just normal, and the sad part is it is for so many.
Imagine if most of the world population was just falling for pyramid schemes or other blatant financial scams constantly. That’s how it feels.
It becomes all too easy to blame the people rather than the systems that led to this, and sometimes it just feels like nobody outside of the hacker (classic definition) circles really gives enough of a shit to take control of the few things they can, and this is late stage capitalism, so I can’t really blame them, we’re all so tired just trying to survive.
If I thought people were just taking it I’d agree, but a lot of people genuinely don’t know what things like ad blockers are. Much less something like using ad guard dns or pi hole. They’ve just never heard of it.
But honestly, how?
One day you can ascend to even go smartphone-free.
Ascended to that in late 2014 because using a smartphone was a trigger for my anxiety.
Back to using those since 2020 because of WhatsApp calls, apps for every shit and such being needed in life.
I have two these days, one Google™️ Pixel™️ for all government and job bullshit, and one crappy old riced to hell and back Sony for everything else. No Google play, no SIM, rooted and ROM’d, no problems, just a neat multi tool in a pinch.
they will endlessly scroll algorithmic ai-generated incomprehensible horrors on Tiktok
How is that much different from scrolling Lemmy? They are both social media
That’s like saying a Subaru and a submarine are both modes of travel.
Because Lemmy is Free, as in Libre and as in free beer, it is open source, and on top of all that, it’s not run for-profit by a single large corporate entity, it’s decentralised structure precludes that by design.
There is nothing actually wrong with websites or forums like this or “social media”, not anymore than there is anything wrong with atoms even if humans found a way to make a weapon of it.
In this case technology is weaponized by capitalism, and they’ll do anything to make you think it’s anything but the corporations who are to blame, misinformation on top of misinformation.
The “mental health effects” of social media or smartphones are all just corporate distractions from the fact all those are really effects of capitalism. Even cryptocurrency isn’t actually bad inherently, I use monero all the time, it’s a great idea actually, especially where power consumption is addressed, but capitalism made it a speculative assets and state backed players wrestle for control. AI too. Open source LLMs benefit everyone, but the lack of tech literacy turned progressives against it and the played right into OpenAI and the rest of those scumbags’ hands.
The fact that those who aren’t immersed in tech don’t know this is why all is lost. For the common man - they won, and it’s all black box products made to exploit people to the last drop.
The game was lost for me when I started getting fingerprinted at certain airports. This privilege used to be reserved for suspected criminals. Now we’re are all suspected criminals on a default setting.
For international flights, US citizens can opt out but foreign nationals have to participate in face scanning, with some exceptions.
Which exceptions?
I’ll bet one of the exceptions is having a bunch of money.
I remember when travelling in the US (Im a foreigner) there was a vip pass thingy to skip lines and enter without even talking to a migration officer (I think). Really seemed like a rich person pass
Yeah, there are two different programs. One is for domestic flights and one is for domestic and international.
I did the domestic flight one once because it was free with my credit card.
But I had to fill out some forms and interview in person.
I only got to use it once because they vip lanes were always closed.
It’s only worth it if you need to travel a lot.
Additionally, I’ve never really suffered long lines through airport security.
The long lines are typically at immigrations and you can’t skip those outside of being a diplomat or private jet rich.
They can skip it yeah, that’s the whole point of the international one
https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler-programs/global-entry
And you can also skip them if an employee gives you TCC pass when your connecting flight will leave soon so you need to get there fast (had that happen to me once)
I’m Canadian and I used to have a pass like that. It was $50 at the time and valid for 5 years.
Hey everyone, this guy’s loaded!
Canada is one, last I heard.
