Let me preface by saying, I have my SUV all set up with a bed and a kitchen and all the amenities I need to camp out in the woods. I like it that way I’m enjoying myself I see no reason to change.
A couple of times I have mentioned that when seeing a doctor and the next thing I know, here comes the social worker with a stack of papers. I tell them that I’m doing fine. That I like how I’m living. I didn’t ask for any unsolicited help. And they don’t seem to listen at all. At some point they just leave me with a bunch of paperwork in a huff. I don’t understand why they get so upset just because I don’t want their help.
Idk how it’s relavant to them that you are basically a van dweller. As long as you are taking care of yourself (eating healthy, exercising, showing, and whatever else) then it doesn’t matter.
Maybe if there was some treatment that required you to have access to facilities you need in a house but I can’t think of anything. This is one of those times I would omit or just say you live in a house.
Just make sure you’re stashing away some cash in an account so you can replace your ride or put a down payment on a house if you decide you do want something a little less mobile some day.
As someone who has nearly lost everything to fire that was started by campers more than once there are externalities to your way of life that potentially harm others. I won’t accuse you directly because I don’t know you but the trend is there.
That’s why I do dispersed camping far away from other humans. I don’t use campfires, I checked the forest regulations to see if there’s any current fire restrictions in place, I pick up trash if I see it and I don’t leave any of my own trash.
I tell them that I’m doing fine.
That’s what most/all of their clients say at first. Especially alcoholics or other addicts do not admit that they need help.
So maybe you should emphasize this point a little more, so that they believe you right from start.
And emphasize that you’re not an alcoholic or an addict.
Some good interactions here. Cant speak to the emotional content because I wasn’t present. Emotions are messy, who knows what happened between you two.
All I can say is that the relevant parties saw your conditions of living and recognized them as the risk factors that they are. You living well, and choosing that life, is a pleasant outcome. But they can’t know that without doing a follow-up assessment. For all they know, you’re living in your car scraping up railroad spikes to buy today’s heroin.
Highly disagree with the advice to lie to your doctor. As long as you are not a danger to others, making explicit threats to harm yourself, or harming a child, and as long as you’re following the laws, then they can’t force you to get services.
Next time, just tell them that you’ve already been assessed and were found to not be at risk. And if someone stops by, be friendly… they’re doing a really hard job that puts a lot of good into the world for a lot of people. Take any pamphlets they got cuz it might be useful knowledge. Educate yourself, etc. And keep on truckin! Thanks for the post.
Where do you shower? Do you have a job? If not, how do you get food, money for gas etc.?
I’m not OP, but a previous car life enjoyer. I would shower at planet fitness, did doordash for a living, and I slept in Walmart parking lots, truck stops, and any bureau of land management managed land.
I got food by exchanging money for it…
It’s clear by your post and comments that you’re living in a SUV due to your lifestyle, not due to deprivation.
So let’s get practical:
- Don’t mention to doctors that you live in a SUV; if possible/reasonable to do so, lie.
- If you must mention it, let clear that you live in it out of a conscious choice, it’s your lifestyle, and you don’t want social workers bugging you.
- If a social worker pops up, highlight the fact that you’re being buggered over and over by social workers, and that you do not want to change your lifestyle.
Beyond that, it is not your problem any more. And that includes their emotional state.
Now, on why they do it. Frankly, I don’t know, but if I had to guess:
A lot of people who desire to help others don’t really do so because they want a better world; they do it for the sake of their own fee fees, because they want to feel like a good person who helps others out. As such, they’re willing to violate the others’ agency and consent and force their “help” down your throat, even if they aren’t actually helping jack shit but being just a burden; and they get really pissy when you correctly highlight that they are not helping and impose some boundaries. (inb4 “but I have good intentions” - go pave Hell with them dammit.)
That is not just social workers, mind you. You see people like this in all professions and environments. However, I believe that there’s a disproportionate large amount of those among social workers due to the nature of their job, simply because social work is all about helping others out.
Couple that with bureaucracy. There’s a high chance that your info is in some database as “refused help”. Guess how someone who, unlike you, needs and wants help but declines it due to pride would get into that database? “Refused help”. So the next social worker checking your entry will see it as someone who potentially might want and need help.
Any social worker who violates your agency and consent is in breach of their legal obligations and should be reported to their state board. Any social worker who takes things a patient says personally, and responds from emotion based on that, is also a terrible social worker. I’ve been a social worker a long ass time and the people I know and work with do neither of these things.
Any social worker who violates your agency and consent is in breach of their legal obligations and should be reported to their state board.
In theory it’s all flowers. In practice, no, not really, regardless of country. And since you claim to be a social worker, odds are that you know it.
I’ll go further than that. Even the social workers who are not naturally inclined towards insistence ad nauseam are trained to be this way. You could claim that it is for good reasons (as some people avoid help out of fear, pride, etc.); but you can’t truthfully claim that it is not a violation of both things, because insistence is a violation of agency and consent, like it or not.
Typically, when confronted with that, plenty social workers start babbling about their “it’s our policy…”, as if evading responsibility + hinting that they do it regardless of situation.
And, if OP’s description of the events is accurate, in their case it gets worse: it isn’t just individual workers doing it, but the whole system. If multiple people ask you to do something, even if none of the individuals are being pushy, the system is still being pushy.
Any social worker who takes things a patient says personally, and responds from emotion based on that
Emphasis mine. That “responds” misrepresents what I said.
regardless of country
social workers…are trained to be this way
No, they’re not, and laws and licensing standards actually vary widely by country. I’m talking about the US, where we have a national accrediting body for social work graduate schools. Nowhere in there is anything about “insistence,” quite opposite in fact.
OP’s experience that happened twice at the same doctor is in no way indicative of a pattern across the whole profession lol
Lastly, looking at your other comment, I have absolutely no idea what “voluntary reinforcement classes in a shantytown” are or how a social worker would be involved in them, or what they did that relates to this topic
No, they’re not
Yes, they are. And odds are that you know it, and why (again: because if they don’t do it they fail to support people who need and want it).
laws and licensing standards actually vary widely by country
The principles and motivations behind those laws and licensing standards are still the same, regardless of government, so you’re bound to see a convergence on the effect of those things.
And this is so blatantly obvious that your “ackshyually” is pointless.
I’m talking about the US, where we have a national accrediting body for social work graduate schools.
OP is likely from USA (due to reference of living in cars), so all your babble, implying that said “nashunal accreriring bory in muh caunrry” makes any practical difference, is just babble.
(Surprisingly consistent with both what I’ve attested myself, and what I’ve seen people across multiple countries complaining about.)
Nowhere in there is anything about “insistence,” quite opposite in fact.
Do you understand the difference between what’s written in a paper versus reality?
OP’s experience that happened twice
Don’t assume “twice”. “Couple times” can mean anything between “twice” and “multiple times” depending on the utterance and context.
At this point you already misrepresented what another person said, then tried to pull off an “ackshyually”, then changed the goalposts from practical reality to some bureaucratic organisation. As such I’m not wasting my time further with you or your comment.
I wasn’t born yesterday.
I am sorry that you feel this way.
I am sorry that you feel this way.
How I “feel” doesn’t matter here. What matters is if my claims are accurate or inaccurate on a large scale.
What I say is based on personal experience with voluntary reinforcement classes in a shanty town*, for almost three years, interacting with social workers and the people they work on/with, all the bloody time. And then having enough insight to check for sampling biases (i.e. to check if my views were consistent with the views of other teachers, and people outside my own country. They were).
*the sort of shanty town that teaches you that, upon hearing gunfire, you should drop on the floor.
In general I don’t really like to hurt other people’s feelings. But I also like to have my freedom to decide to do things the way I want. I can see your point but it seems kind of harsh.
Can you explain what you felt was harsh?
A lot of people who desire to help others don’t really do so because they want a better world; they do it for the sake of their own fee fees, because they want to *feel* like a good person who helps others out.
–Here you’re saying that they are being disingenuous and glorifying themselves which means you probably think they don’t really want to help people at all.
As such, they’re willing to violate the others’ agency and consent and force their “help” down your throat, even if they aren’t actually helping jack shit but being just a burden; and they get really pissy when you correctly highlight that they are not helping and impose some boundaries. (inb4 “but I have good intentions” - go pave Hell with them dammit.
–Here you seem to be saying that they’re forceful and arrogant and should probably go to hell
That is not just social workers, mind you. You see people like this in all professions and environments. However, I believe that there’s a disproportionate large amount of those among social workers due to the nature of their job, simply because social work is all about helping others out.
–You see this across the board in similar professions and bureaucracies which could be true, I’ll admit
Couple that with bureaucracy. There’s a high chance that your info is in some database as “refused help”. Guess how someone who, unlike you, needs and wants help but declines it due to pride would get into that database? “Refused help”. So the next social worker checking your entry will see it as someone who potentially might want and need help.
–Here you say that I probably could be put on some blacklist and every time I open my mouth they’re going to come shove it down my throat again.
Now, I’m not necessarily saying you’re wrong, I just don’t think I would have put it so bluntly.
At no point should you ever be so concerned about protecting a licensed professional’s feelings that you don’t ask for what you want, in this case to be left alone. If they get their feelings hurt, that’s totally on them, because they’re (supposed to be) the professional in this situation.
Good point. And I might have come across a little defensive, as someone else mentioned. My next strategy is simply not to ever bring it up again. It’s apparently not a fun topic of conversation when it comes to doctors and hospitals.
I get not wanting to hurt the others’ feelings, but agency and consent take priority. Specially when it comes to one’s own life.
You aren’t hurting anyone or doing anything wrong. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people with fashy instincts who freak out over anyone living an unconventional life. And capitalism frowns on anyone living freely and not paying rent, etc.
So true. If you’re not following the life script people freak the fuck out. Want to live in a vehicle? Don’t want kids? Don’t want to be married? Into BDSM? Your political views land on both sides? People just don’t know what to do with anyone that doesn’t fit in a box.
Or take their help on things not directly related to housing? A decent social worker can do so much for you that could be genuinely helpful.
I wish we treated unhoused with the same basic structure as hospice. Having a team with a social worker, Dr, nurse, and counseling for each person would go a long way to long term well-being even for people who choose to be unhoused.
That sounds wonderful, I wish we could do that. Maybe someday.
People who work in helping professions can sometimes have a lot of their identity and self worth tied up into it. A person who has not processed their emotions and baggage about their job/themselves/their place in the world/etc will unfortunately take that baggage out on clients. It is nonsense and I’m sorry you had to deal with it.
Because they have 50 more people to see in the next 7 hours and some dipshit wasted their time scheduling them to drive out into the middle of fucking nowhere to see some dude that’s already told the last 6 people he doesn’t need them.
I was in the hospital and she didn’t have very far to go. But I kind of get the point. I’m sure she had 50 different people to see that day.
Honest question:
How do you make money for things like food, automobile costs, and your connected device (assuming phone)? I’m not trying to make a broader point. I am genuinely curious.
A lot of people have jobs online. A lot of people have YouTube channels that they make money off of. Me, I’m on social security. I’m retired and I make a little bit of extra money online. I save up money in a savings account just for situations I might get myself into.
Thanks for sharing. Glad you’re happy.
I’m gonna be honest with you, there’s probably some red flags that your doctor saw that perhaps you’re unaware of. You say living in your van is a choice; are you being honest with yourself about that? Are you actually taking care of your hygiene this way?
Because one red flag I’m seeing is a van-dweller making a doctor’s appointment in the first place. Usually nomadic/hermitic people (as in, those who choose to live off the grid and aren’t doing so as a matter of circumstance) generally don’t go to the doctor, unless something is really wrong. So for you to show up in a doctor’s office at all is already anomalous in the first place.
It shouldn’t be understated just how important basic things like access to clean running water can be. And you’re using the words “van” and “SUV”, and not “RV” or “motorhome”, which leads me to believe that you aren’t taking care of some basic needs.
If you’re truly taking care of yourself and being healthy, then more power to ya; I’m honestly a little jealous of those who can live that life. But if you’re actually struggling, you should probably consider taking a look at the paperwork they gave you. Don’t get pride get in the way of getting help.
I have clean clothes, I go to the laundry regularly, I have a portable shower, I have a portable toilet. I brushed my teeth, I clean my body, I get exercise everyday, I try to eat a low fat high fiber diet.
I had to have my gallbladder removed
So you’re a little older, on a fixed income, don’t have a support system nearby, don’t have a place you can stay that has dedicated bathroom facilities or even room to stand up indoors, and you just had a not-insignificant surgery that comes with, at a minimum, laparoscopic incisions, and could significantly affect the way your body processes its diet.
You may well be doing fine, but I’m not calling out either the doctor or the social worker here. Pushing you a little and making you insist you’re happy was a reasonable call.
That’s your point your point, but I’m currently sitting in an easy chair at my mother’s house. I just had a shower, and a snack and now I think I’m going to eat some ice cream while I watch Wheel of Fortune.
Well, I’m happy to have been wrong about the support system. Heal up, and maybe view the annoyance as one of the few downsides of your lifestyle. What’s offputting to you may save someone else’s life. Best of luck!
I hope the people that really need help get the help they need
I blame this mostly on the doctor. The doctor should’ve asked you if you wanted to speak with someone about your situation, but lots of doctors prefer to just make decisions for people rather than ask.
The rest of the blame lies with the social worker, who sounds like a bad social worker. Active listening is Social Work 101, and it sounds like she didn’t do that.
Maybe your doctor’s office is full of people who are bad at their jobs. I recommend against extrapolating anything about these professions as a whole from your two experiences there.
Good point. I’ll definitely never mention it again.
You’re not participating in the capitalist system. You need a mortgage and credit card debt.
Bingo
So far off base here lmao
They are participating in the capitalist system, mortgage or not.
Living in an SUV is often the first step to really needing their help. Housing insecurity is a quick road to pretty rough living. If you are in their system, in their eyes, they can actually act quickly and help you when the likely next step happens. Not being in the system is pretty slow to get help in most places.
There are a lot of nomads and van dwellers living in dispersed camping spots, traveling the country and enjoying the outdoors. We even have meetups. Others like me leave the sites better than we found them and follow all the rules. Everyone I’ve met so far is happy living this way. I know it seems strange, but enjoying the outdoors and not having to pay bills is wonderful to me and I get to choose solitude or community however I please. It’s a very free way to live.
Clearly the nomadic lifestyle does not work for everyone. Many people try it for a couple of months or a couple of years and then make a change. If you’re enjoying it, great, and if you enjoy it for years or decades to come, great, but don’t pretend that everyone does. And this is important because social workers cannot predict your future. They can only play the odds and make reasonable preparations for possible future badness.
When I find myself becoming irked by someone offering help I don’t need, it helps me to think of things in terms of people who slip through the gaps: the system that the social worker is a part of strives to help those who need it, and you not needing that help makes you a false positive. You were likely flagged because sometimes when someone is living in their vehicle, this is a symptom (and reinforcing factor) of their life being in disarray. That is to say that some people who superficially look a lot like you are in need of support, and not catching these people would be false negatives. Bonus complication is that many people who do need this help may also be resistant to support (for a variety of reasons).
Given that no system is perfect, and the error rate will always be greater than zero, we can ask the hypothetical “is it better to have fewer false positives and more false negatives, or more false positives and fewer false negatives?”. Put a different way, when you’re bothered, that’s you slipping through the gaps in a system that has opted for more false positives with the goal of helping as many people who need it as possible.
Unrelated to everything else I said, I’m glad you’ve been able to find a way of living that you’re happy in — it is a challenge when the life that is best suited for us is one that society considers “abnormal”, so I’m happy to hear about anyone who has broken into what works.
Oh yeah, I totally get the lifestyle. Done enough overloading to really appreciate the lifestyle. But I’m trying to explain things from their point of view. Even if now, you are in control and everything is going according to your plans, they see trouble in months if not years when those plans abruptly change. They know how most people got from point A to point B and are now sleeping in shelters or dark corners of “civilization”.
I guess from this perspective I can see that point. The last one I talked to was actually arguing with me about it and was upset when she left, I don’t understand that. I wasn’t confrontational with her. I just simply said I’m fine I don’t really need any help have a nice day. I thought I was pretty calm. I guess it was probably just her.
Out of curiosity, what were her arguments?
If you have enough resources to weather any (literal or metaphorical) storms, then you might be OK but that is not the typical situation.
For instance, she showed me a piece of paper where she put little yellow stars on all of the different resources. One of which was for $700 a month. I said that I don’t want to pay money for rent and utilities. She then said okay well here’s this place where you can live with a roommate. I said I’m not really a people person, I don’t want to live with a roommate and she said well you might make a new friend. And it kind of went on like that for a while.
Ah, that’s unfortunate. If you say you’re happy in your SUV then showing you places to live that aren’t your SUV isn’t very helpful. Having a discussion about whether you’re aware of and prepared for any risks associated with living in an SUV could be productive - either you’d learn something from social worker’s knowledge of many people living in vehicles or the social worker could be reassured that you’re not in a terrible situation.
Do be careful out there! I hope you’ve got enough cash in the bank or enough credit to recover if someone messes with your SUV.
Thanks, I appreciate that
She was probably a bit overzealous I’m thinking, yeah. But that is a thankless job with low pay and little success. I give social workers a ton of latitude. I’m glad you stayed calm in the face of things.
I know I sure couldn’t do it
Same here.
