Some of the LinkedIn Responses are direct and on-point, and also hilariously/depressingly based depending on how you look at it:
EDIT: In hindsight, I think I should’ve looked into posting this in a different community… It’s closer to a silly “innovation”… soo… is this considered FUD? I also don’t support smoking or vaping, especially among kids. Original title had “privacy-violating” before the “solution”.
i dont see how this is a violation of anyones privacy and trying to get kids to not get addicted to drugs is a pretty fucking good cause.
Assuming this is just a sensor for air quality tuned to this use case, I would probably have to agree. So long as it isn’t tracking specific students or taking photos, this is about as privacy invansize as the motion detector that opens automatic doors… or any old carbon monoxide or other detector which are used to legit protect public safety, just as preventing children from the claws of the tobacco industry.
Lemmy generally has a pro-drugs sentiment, which is certainly unsettling.
Also, can I visit bathrooms and not get into clouds of vape smoke, pretty please?
i mean im all for letting people approach drugs as they please but, someone smoking weed once in a while with some frinds is not the same as massive corporations flooding media as specifically media for children with propaganda to get them addicted to nicotine. Being pro that isnt so much being pro drug as its being a corporate bootlicker and downright irresponsible.
I don’t know what’s with the downvotes, you’re pretty spot on. Some people are too privacy-oriented on this sub
Addicted to drugs!? We’re talking about vaping here. Don’t strain your hand clutching those pearls.
dude never heard about nicotine thats crazy.
Nicotine is a drug.
Alcohol too, btw.
Nicotine is no better of a drug than many others you probably wouldn’t want kids taking. Just because it’s a vape doesn’t mean it’s not incredibly addictive.
Doesn’t make anyone sound like less of a square calling it a drug.
Is nicotine not a drug?
I’m not going to argue that nicotine is not technically a drug. But I still think you sound like a square in calling it one.
And? Why does that matter?
So, it is a drug, but it’s not right to call it one?
Removed by mod
Big LED light outside bathroom
paper sign underneath light “vaping detected”
The amount of over enginnering that went into this is why we can’t have nice things.
In my high school they managed to rip the alarm’s siren off the wall without triggering it; if these kids have even an 1/8 th of the ingenuity they had, these things aren’t gonna last
Do kids prefer to not have doors then? Because I’m reading a lot of messed up headlines where the school removes the stall and bathroom doors and kids lose their privacy.
I’d rather have the TV with an alert than have to do competitive pooping.
That just sounds like a seperate problem to me.
It’s a separate but adjacent problem.
No school should ever be allowed to take the doors off bathroom stalls.
That just seems to be the alternative that don’t places are doing to deal with kids congregating in the bathroom to vape.
That seems like a management issue.
They can see the time it went offline and then the time you walked out of the bathroom. It doesn’t take much to put it together.
Also I think these devices are designed to be resistant to tampering.
A piece of clear packing tape would take it out permanently as it would be almost impossible to see that the sensor was covered if the tape was applied cleanly.
You’ve seen packing tape in real life, right? It’s not “almost impossible to see”, it’s shiny and obvious. As much as I love skirting draconian measures, that ain’t it…
Nobody is going to inspect it that closely, especially if they mount it on the ceiling. It does blend into certain plastics that are smooth.
Plastic bag and a rubber band, my good sir!
I’m intrigued. How does that work?
It has to have the vape fumes get to the sensor. Cover the sensor with the bag, tie off with rubber band. No more ability to sense what can’t get there.
I, in no way, am endorsing vaping, especially with kids.
A very long time ago, and much less technologically advanced:
I went to boarding school. We had a little bit of a propensity for sneaking out of the dorm at night.
New dean comes in our senior year and installs alarms on all the exits.
Our senior year time capsule contains the controlling keypad to that alarm system that wasn’t even functional for twenty four hours.
I’ve no doubt that today’s teens possess the ingenuity to bypass if not completely disable this thing.
Its amazing the number of problems in life that csn be solved with a $2 harbor freight automatic punch. Speakers especially.
How to get overdoses from pills instead of highly controllable doses from vape pens.
You think kids are controlling their doses?
As it was with standardized testing, so shall it be with personal behavior: the goal is not to inform the student why, but to enforce compliance.
There’s a lot of good points being tossed around but I think this one is particularly good.
Apparently the origins of standardized testing are surprisingly dark even for what it is: in the leadup to WW1, they wanted a way to separate the brains in the bunkers from the bodies in the trench.
I gotta finish reading Palo Alto
Apparently the origins of standardized testing are surprisingly dark even for what it is: in the leadup to WW1, they wanted a way to separate the brains in the bunkers from the bodies in the trench.
Later versions of standarized testing, the ones conjured up by undead creatures like Bill “The Good One” Gates, were intended to be failed as a justification for privatizing more schools and selling more standardized testing.
That looks like the emblem for my old high school, all 13+ years ago. If the kids are anything like we used to be, this will not last and will either have some one smash it, or just turn it off at the wall. Hell as pointed out, odds are the ones doing it don’t give a damn and revel in the attention.
I was the smashy kid in high school, and if I encountered this dystopian bullshit I would have smashed it with a glow in my heart
Time to break the displays I guess.
The dildo of an unintended consequences is approaching.
Bullies will start blowing vape smoke on other kid’s desks to get them in trouble. And someone will eventual create a smoke-box class room to get the screen to light up with alerts.
Then what? You need to cross reference the alerts with a video feed or snapshots.
Then some genius will figure that using AI to analyze all of the data is easier than manually doing so.
the sensors aren’t placed on desks, you can see that the displays are placed outside of bathrooms because that’s where kids generally vape. my high school has sensors inside the bathrooms on the ceiling and they don’t work. you’re thinking of a scenario that’s incredibly difficult and costly to implement, I assure you no district would be willing to hook this bullshit up to EVERY DESK. the term “Simon’s desk” here is likely just a name for one of the sensors they used to test this concept, with the sensor being located at the desk of a developer named simon
The device still needs a human to investigate. Also it can’t narrow it down to specific students. All it can say is that there was vaping related chemicals detected in the bathroom.
All it can say is that there was vaping related chemicals detected in the bathroom.
Bring in a fog machine (mostly same ingredients) and see if machines can have aneurisms.
A fog machine doesn’t have any of the same metals or nicotine.
Also why would it be ok for a student to bring in a fog machine. That also seems kinda problematic
Any good school should have a fog machine of its own IMO.
You don’t vape metals unless you’re running it unreasonably long and hot without juice. The studies that showed metals shedding from coils basically engineered it through nonrealistic methods that would never be repeated in the wild, you’d notice the worst taste you’ve ever had as the cotton singes long before the coil sheds any material. That said, vape juice is VG, PG, Flavors, and Nic; fog machine juice is VG, PG, distilled water, and essential oils if you want some smells. The bulk of both fluids is literally the exact same with the exception that vapes require USP food grade VG/PG where nobody cares with fog machines.
As to your second question: Because it’s funny. Of course they’d be mad about it, that’s part of why it’s funny. Not a class clown, were you?
I’ll chime in with a weird take: this is a privacy community, we are united in a sense of defending our peaceful and unproblematic browsing on the internet and sending messages to friends from lunatics who seem to want everyone treated with the suspicion of highest criminal activity. the article posted describes a “privacy infringement” onto someone who not only has already broken the rule, but strongly publicized it by making people have to smell it. the perpetrators didn’t even have an expectation of privacy, so the premise is ridiculous.
I’ll say it like this: if the tv detects nicotine patches on someone’s skin, then i pick up the torches and pitchforks.
This. It’s a sensor, detecting only a specific air type. Not a camera, not a microphone. It doesn’t have to do with privacy, this is not “scan and collect data about all to punish one” and cannot be turned into one.
I’ll agree it’s a fuc**ing dumb idea. Like utter useless garbage. Classic capitalistic “fix behavioral trash-consumption issue with overpriced fancy tech products that sound amazing in theory and are garbage in practice, without fighting the problem at the root”. Screenshot comment said tax moeny but I’m willing to bet this is some kind of private school.
This may be a controversial take, but maybe we shouldn’t surveil children in bathrooms full stop.
I think your take is too far. It’s just beyond reasonable.
If a teacher were outside the room and heard a loud crash, they’d go investigate. This is doing the same thing.
It isn’t identifying individuals, it doesn’t record any information about a person, it simply flags that somebody is breaking the rules and is worth taking a look.
This is about the least invasive technological solution you could get.
And it’s a heck of a lot better than alternatives like removing the stall doors.
It’s not surveilling children, it’s surveilling the byproducts of vaping.
There’s no indication they use cameras in there. It’s most likely just a sensor for vape smoke, similar to your common fire alarm.
And if it makes bathrooms a place where everyone can breathe without inhaling nicotine, I’m all for it. This is not a serious privacy concern.
Anything that picks anything up in a bathroom is a privacy concern.
In usual schools teachers are required to walk through every bathroom once in every break because the children are hiding in there to skip going in the yard. I do think this is much more annoying though.
Quite an expensive toy for the children. Because the boys will play around with it.
In my experience, a bazinga device like this, if it’s anywhere that’s not directly guarded at all times, will be broken in, oh, a month or less.
Kids are gonna find ways to vape. It’s just the way it is. Just like when I was a kid we all found ways to smoke. Making it more difficult just gives them more drive to “get away with it.” Sometimes I feel like all these preventative measures that people come up with were by people that were never even a kid. Like banning fruity flavors. I started smoking when I was 14 and it wasn’t because it tasted good.
Don’t do it in a place used by others. This makes the bathroom usable
Also vaping is very bad for your brain. It is highly addictive and the younger the start the higher chance you will never be able to stop. Also I would also be concerned that they end up getting vapes with drugs in them. It has happened with weed.
Naah in all for the ban on fruity flavours. A lot of people, myself include, growing up didn’t smoke because it tasted like trash. Imagine if cigarettes tasted like hot chocolate!
It doesn’t remove all vapers, but it doesn’t increase the numbers either.
Banning fruity flavors sounds like it would inadvertently ban all of the drug-free vapes… Flavor-only vapes get you all the big clouds and cool-factor that’s a big drive for kids, with none of the Nicotine or weed. Just inhaling the vapor on its own can be perfectly safe.
It’s preposterous. First of all, you aren’t my mother, you don’t get to decide what other adults do with their own goddamn body, this includes “inhale flavoring.”
Now with that out of the way: The flavor bans are not for kids, kids are also banned from the “tobacco” flavors as well, the bans are targeted at the customers and legally that is supposed to be only adults. And as me and the other guy you’re responding to are proof of, it isn’t the yummy flavor that originally attracted us to things like fucking Marlboro Reds as children, and the flavor that was present was not a deterrent. Frankly, if we’re banning good flavored ecigs because “kids who aren’t supposed to get them anyway want them more” then so too must we ban flavored vodkas like Ciroc, and hard ciders, white claws, most mixed cocktails, hell even sour beers and delicious trappist ales are too sweet, any alcoholic beverage that doesn’t taste like an oak barrel has to go, because adults can’t like good flavors so those must be to entice children to buy them even though just like the vape store the sign on the liquor store door says “must be 21 to enter.”
The point of the flavor ban is to make it so that adults who are legally able to buy it in the first place have a less enjoyable experience trying to quit or switch from analogue cigarettes, and as a result are more likely to go back to the cigarettes. It was lobbied for by the big tobacco and pharma corps, you’re spreading their propaganda unwittingly.
Regular full flavored vape juice is by far the most effective and successful smoking cessation or harm reduction tool available to us to date, better than patches, gums, pills, yadda yadda. The tobacco corps want you using their products, and big pharma wants you to take Chantix, they do not want you vaping because they want to take your money while they kill you, and they can’t do that if you have something that is 95% safer than their arsenic and fiberglass sticks and tastes like Pineapples.
I mean mothers don’t decide for adults either, hopefully. But I think you missed my point.
We know that: Tobacco and alcohol companies tried (and still do try) very hard to get kids to smoke & drink, because a child who smokes/drinks will likely become a significant customer for life.
Regulators also know this, so they began aiming at removing the marketing which was clearly influential to age groups not legally allowed to consume alcohol/cigarettes. I know for example Australia banned alcohol ads during kids tv shows, tobacco advertising has been banned since the 90’s.
Then along came vaping, which was neither a tobacco or alcohol product and could circumvent the regulations in place.
There is a significant young population size who will take up smoking/vaping for its social appeal - whatever that is. Let’s call them pot #1.
There is also a significant young population who will try smoking/vaping, realise it tastes like ass or is too much effort and decide to not continue with it. Let’s call them pot #2.
Pot #1, which it sounds like would include you for cigarettes, cannot be influenced and these regulations trying to reduce smoking/vaping would annoy them.
Pot #2 however can be influenced as long as those factors are address, e.g. ban the selling of the child friendly flavours, reducing exposure and limiting supply.
By reducing pot #2 for harmful activities like drinking, smoking and vaping, you reduce the burden on your public health system in the long term.
The big vape companies have been bought out by the big tobacco companies now, so they are one in the same.
You do know that the “tobacco” flavors are nothing like actual tobacco, and are instead still sweet just with a particular taste vape companies decide is “close enough to tobacco,” right? Some people do actually prefer them to fruity or desert flavors. You have to have some kind of flavor to cover up the taste of raw Nic suspended in VG, nothing is flavorless in reality, tobacco flavors just taste bad to me, some of those kids may end up preferring it. With that said, what is really stopping pot #2 from being like “well societal pressures are high enough I chose to do it, and it doesn’t taste that bad, I still wanna be cool.” Then they get addicted in the meantime like pot #1? Nothing really.
Furthermore, Ok fine, ban flavors for kids. I’m not a kid, I should still be able to buy it. Flavored vodka is banned for kids, but I can still buy that, do you think we should also ban Ciroc since that’s what many teens start with, or not?
Btw your link to phillip morris vapes that nobody has ever used in the history of the workd is funny as hell, I didn’t even know they made these, really controlling the market, huh? Who owns Smok, Geekvape, Elf Bar, Juul, or any of the popular ones? I’ll give you a hint, it isn’t Phillip Morris nor is it R. J. Reynolds. And are those on PM’s site disposable ones or are they supposed to be refillable? PM doesn’t want you to use the good stuff that people like, they want you to have to use whatever drivel they put out.
Btw Juul is the only company who was sued for marketing to kids, do you really think it’s pertinent to go after flavors adults enjoy to spite the customers of an entire industry not just that company, instead of just attacking the advertisements and companies themselves like we do for alcohol? Again then why not ban the flavored drinks for adults as well?
Also were those ads targeted ads? Why wasn’t google’s adsense involved in the lawsuit if so? You’d think the platform that targets ads would be involved in the suit about targeting 21+ ads to kids (which google/apple do know they’re doing since they do have that sort of data on all their customers). I propose this is because it isn’t about the ads for kids, and is instead about hurting the vaping industry for adults (who again, also like flavors, liking pineapples isn’t exclusive to children), and pushing the big vape companies out of the way to make room for your never before seen phillip morris brand things with flavors designed to push people right back to analogue.
It’s clear you don’t understand grouping from this conversation.
IQOS may not be big in all markets, but their share is not negligible.
The juul lawsuit triggered a lot of regulation changes and created legal precedent.
That is all I have time for.
I notice you’re avoiding answering if you think this ban should also be applied to alcohol. Is it perhaps because you agree that the literal exact same logic used against vape flavors is stupid when it’s used on the thing you may like?
I have a life to attend to.
In theory, similar bans should apply to all harmful substances e.g. fizzy drinks, alcohol, fast food etc. This is obviously an extreme take and difficult, if not impossible, to do in practice.
I also drink, have consumed illegal substances and consume fast-food on a rare basis.
My reasoning is that I do not want extensive costs being lumped into the general public to pay for the needed health care, due to the availability of harmful, non-beneficial products in our society. I do not believe extra tax on these products is appropriate or sufficient as these products tend to be used by those with lower education or lower income groups - and it is not fair to further burden these groups in life.
So do they have cameras in there or what
It is just checks the air for specific chemicals. They also have them on air planes.
Not invasive in the least
IR Smoke Detectors with IOT would do the trick here and seem a likely choice on account of they didn’t include some bullshit about AI recognition, but it also makes them hilariously easy to game. Just spray some axe near it, you know us teenage boys, we smell. Or hell, dust.
Of all problems US schools are dealing with, surely vaping is the one that requires the most urgent action.
Maybe they can modify it to display a gunshot scoreboard.
It is very bad for young brains
Not as bad as being shot.
A school district spends $180,000 (hyperbole, I don’t know actual numbers) of taxpayer money deploying this system between the actual hardware costs, maintenance costs to install the hardware, it costs to implement it into their network, and probably an ongoing contact with this dummy’s company. Maybe only for support but with the way things are now I’m sure they built this app to phone home to their servers (introducing a huge potential security risk over simply running it locally on the schools existing network infrastructure in a docker or something), calling it “cloud based”, and charging the district 1k/month to run the devices the district now owns and should be able to operate without the company. The company then talks about how they’ll back up records and safeguard data so you don’t have to worry about that (that it dept you pay is pointless!)
Three months after deployment it turns out the sensors can be tripped by many things not related to vaping, maybe increases in heat, mouthwash breath, etc. the false positives are due to a hardware flaw and cannot be fixed with a patch. Feel free to upgrade to sensor version 2.0, now with improved accuracy! (read: the problem still exists but isn’t as bad). Only another 40k to buy the new hardware, rip out the old hardware (which is now worthless), install the new stuff, and configure the software for everything (again, maintenance and IT costs)
9 months after deployment the company is doing poorly because their product is stupid and only a few idiots actually bought it (way to go idiot). There’s concerns because they sent a new Eula that outlines data sharing policies. They are potentially finding ways to harvest the data they agreed to safely store to try and create a new revenue stream to right their sinking ship. District counsel says fighting the Eula change will be expensive and there’s not much precedent for it, plus they state they will anonymize data before sharing so it’s not a ferpa violation, technically. It feels scummy but you can’t do anything about it. You also don’t really trust them to only sell anonymized data but you can’t prove they aren’t crossing that line so whatever, I guess
15 months after deployment they get hacked because they’ve run out of vc cash, never could get an actual profit stream going (turns out they’re spending 750,000/yr on salaries for 5 people and they’re all kitted out with sick work computers for what is basically coding a web app, but I digress). security of their servers was one of the budgetary constraints they chose to make to right the ship (but had to keep the $1800 office chairs and the 15-20k/mo rent loft they use as an office in a hcol area). The contract says this may happen and they’re not responsible unless there’s gross negligence on their part, which you can’t prove, and that they do some bare minimum reactionary shit after the fact to mitigate damage. So they’re legally blameless and now you get to notify your community their children’s data was leaked to god knows who, whoops
22 months after the fact they go out of business officially. You get a form email about the company’s journey and the difficult decision they had to make to stop fucking around on a dumb project that sucks because no dumbass vc will give them fun bucks anymore to keep playing tech bro billionaire. All the sensors stop working because they require a connection to the servers, which they shut off immediately without a sunset period. You’re reminded every day when you log in to the schools admin panel and get 350 “sensor not connected” error messages and your students bitch about the “sensor not connected: server not available” error pop up showing up on their classroom console. It takes IT a few days to remove their shit from the network and that costs you even more money in wasting your IT staff time when they should be fixing the broken computers in the computer lab or whatever.
Now your school has a bunch of weird boxes on the wall. Sometimes people ask you about them and you go “oh those don’t do anything” and remember that they cost taxpayers in your community tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dollars and wasted hundreds of hours of your supports staffs time that they could’ve been using to improve the school
But then you scroll on instagram and see there’s this new thing that will detect when kids are bullying each other. You just have to put a camera in each classroom. It’s okay, it won’t record. It will just use the power of AI and machine learning. You’re sold right there and the cycle starts again
a docker
Something tells me you don’t really know Docker
I mean like running their hypothetical control software/framework within a docker on a local server. Is that illogical? I do the same for the software that runs my ip cameras with my home server, instead of them needing to connect to some external server.
You’re ultimately right though, when it comes to docker I am at the proficiency level of “can deploy other people’s images” and not so much on the “have bothered to make my own”
Finally, a local WEEE company gets to make a few hundred bucks selling off the glorified VOC sensors at the end.
Best comment I’ve read for a long time
This sounds about right. My only quibble is about sick computers and web apps. Twenty years ago I felt good because all I needed was a text editor and a web browser. Nowadays, the hungriest apps on my desktop are Firefox and VS Code.
To be fair, 20 years ago your computer would have choked doing 1/10th the stuff either one of those apps do today. Hell, I still remember writing a prank program that would lock up my school computers because I made it beep too fast.
Wow you unlocked a memory in me. I recall doing something similar but using some send command to do the same with any computer logged in and on the network.
Week after that I met a dude from municipal school IT support and that’s when I first learned about Linux. He had Red Hat on his laptop and he was happy to talk about it. Very cool dude.
My work had something like this to detect drug usage on premises for a while (it was and is a problem still) and it costed like 30k capital and 2-3 opex a year. We had it for like a year and only took it out because there were too many false flags and security didn’t and doesn’t have the staff to be chasing down every alert anyway.
It was neat that on paper it was able to detect different drugs, heroin, weed, meth all flagged different alerts with 2 of those contacting police when detected. Unfortunately it was only like 70% accurate and we didn’t/don’t have enough security staff to use it properly so it’s gone now.
