Wasn’t WhatsApp essentially built from Signal’s base protocol anyway? Why use the meta clone when the original is right there?
No. WhatsApp came first, but later adopted Signal’s key exchange and encryption. WhatsApp was an independent company for years and had rejected several acquisition offers, but $19 billion is a big number.
One of WhatsApp’s founders is now chairman of the Signal Foundation and a major financial backer of the project.
Thanks!
How do we know signal isn’t also run by a techbro who just wants our data?
Does it really matter who made it if you can see the source code? You don’t have to trust them.
That’s kind of a core tenet of libre/open software, innit? Independently verifiable software that you can change at your pleasure.
Can you though? Can I build the apk myself and use their services?
Yes, you can use their exact build environment straight from GitHub. You can also use Molly.im which is another app that i think is a fork? Im still investigating it.
I don’t think that the founders are bad people. If you look at their history of work, they have done enormous amounts of work in the computer security sector. The founder, however, did run a cloud based WPA cracking service.
Meredith Whitaker, who is the president, used to work at Google doing research for “issues related to net neutrality measurement, privacy, security, and the social consequences of artificial intelligence”.
In 2018 she then staged walkouts at Google over concerns of sexual misconduct and citizen surveillance.
The people on Signal’s board seem to be trustworthy people with a pretty airtight background. You have to worry more about the mobile operating system compromising you than do you about Signal.
SimpleX as well!
Just got the app. Really like the idea!
IMO the best on-boarding I have seen in a chat app. Just scan each other’s QR codes or click a link. No account management because ID is unique to each conversation.
Signal and WhatsApp need a phone number, Matrix/Element is needlessly messy, XMPP/Conversations is sensible IIRC (ID + password)
The founder of SimpleX is out of his mind. Check yourself: https://xcancel.com/epoberezkin
It doesn’t look good indeed…
Sadly, that’s what we have to work with. The app is pretty good though
TIL the founder is a transphobic and conservative piece of shit
Made a post to raise awareness
Avoid the lemmy.ml community because it’s moderated by that fucker
My wishlist is an app which is not linked to a phone number, is multi platform and has a web app. It should be none US and open source. That isn’t too many requirements and yet nothing seems to full fit the bill? Anyway good luck trying to get school parent’s groups to use something other than WhatsApp.
Matrix and Element. Run your own server if you want or use a server that’s not in the US.
XMPP/Jabber via a web client like movim.eu sounds like it ought to work!
You can also look into Snikket as a host for small groups like friends or family, but can continue to use the Movim web client even if you’re hosting with Snikket rather than Movim itself.
Matrix fits the bill.
Unless you don’t like the federated nature.
so a centralized American messenger enshitified, lets switch to the next centralized American messenger, it surely will not enshitify in the future, lets ignore the actual problem, what could go wrong
Proprietary servers is still proprietary software
Don’t let perfection stand in the way of good enough
It may not be the holy grail, but moving away from Meta-owned Whatsapp is already a pretty significant improvementI agree and it would be much better if people would use Signal instead of WhatsApp, but I think there’s still one problem.
Due to how messaging platforms work, every time you switch you lose pretty much everything (messages, media, etc) This makes switching very hard even for a nerd like me, because if Signal is not “perfect” it means that I will have to switch again at some point and lose everything again.
Thats a problem with silos (where one owner hosts all the servers) in general. You will have to switch the entire ecosystem once the inevitable enshitification sets in. It’s a good idea to switch to something open source and federated (where many different non profit organisations and even self hosting individuals host many different servers). That way you can migrate your history and contacts to another server of necessary but never have to switch the ecosystem again. Think it how email works, it’s the best known federated system. If you don’t like you email provider anymore you can just chose another one and still keep your contacts and messages on a client like Thunderbird forever. Xmpp and matrix are the hottest candidates in my opinion, but you can check the messenger matrix that was linked in a comment above to see what suits you best.
Well said, the problem really is that Signal isn’t federated. I’m keeping an eye on Matrix for now.
I’ve been using Signal for years and my database was getting really bloated with media, attachments, etc but I didn’t want to delete it all. I used this and it’s incredible:
https://github.com/bepaald/signalbackup-tools
Just make a backup from within signal, copy that backup file to your PC, then run this tool. The commands I used make an HTML webpage that looks just like the signal messenger, along with a way of searching your messages. You can choose different commands to export however you like.
I used:
signalbackup-tools [input] [passphrase] --exporthtml [directory] --split --searchpage --originalfilenames
So while this doesn’t help you move off your current messenger, you don’t have to worry that your data/messages will be lost in Signal.
Can I ask why are you so attached to your message history? I recently lost my entire WhatsApp history and it hasn’t made any difference in my life to be honest.
You can save any media you care about. And Signal can backup your chats if that history is important to you.
Most of the alternatives mentioned have such low adoption that they aren’t truly viable options yet - no matter how much we wish otherwise.
And I say that not as a critic - I actually use Matrix, XMPP, and Jitsi myself. But guess how many of my friends, family, or colleagues are on them?
Exactly.
That’s why I recommend Signal. At least there, people are likely to find folks they already know.
Be careful with that ol’ Chestnut. Circumstances may dictate perfection, where less than such may be catastrophic.
In that case it wouldn’t be “good enough”. But I don’t think this is such an all-or-nothing situation.
How about Delta Chat? At least as secure as Signal, open source, and decentralized.
Ya it’d be better if it didn’t require a phone number but it’s a solid start as it’s build up a user base over the past decade. Matrix is good but I know far less people that use it and it’ll be a long time of growing with nerdy/geeky communities before it starts getting more mainstream users
signal requires a phone number and won’t even allow you to send sms to those that aren’t on signal.
its better, but still not great.
If you need to send sms to someone not on signal, why not just send them an sms
if they need my phone number to have an account anyway, they can offer both.
i dont need more apps that do the same thing. i need less.
It’s arguably a very bad idea for a secure messenger to also provide an SMS interface, since those are basically cleartext
exactly. so I’m wondering what the purpose is for its need.
What? You use a secure messenger to send secure messages. It doesn’t make sense for a secure messenger to offer sending insecure messages (SMS).
Edit: oh, you’re probably referring to why it requires a phone number. This seems to be due to abuse/spam prevention, as otherwise creating new accounts to spam people with is basically free.
using the phone number is still a pretty unnecessary risk, imho.
there’s no real need for it any longer.
Do you have a better approach to prevent spam in mind? Without a barrier of entry it becomes a serious issue.
It used to function as a fallback SMS/MMS messenger (like how iMessage does) but when Google started moving to convert Android from SMS/MMS to RCS Signal made the hard decision to cut the fallback functionality rather than follow Google’s new framework.
I personally hope once the dust settles Signal designs a RCS engine and restores the fallback functionality.
Yeah killing the sms function was basically a deal breaker for me, no matter how much I tried I could only get three people to use Signal, the rest were all sms. When the sms feature was removed 2 of the 3 dropped Signal completely, so now the only person I know who still uses it is my mom and even she still flips back and forth between Signal and Google messages when texting me.
I still have Signal on my phone and suggest it people when they ask how to contact me, but everyone just wants to text my phone number.
I like Signal. I even got all my close friends and family on it, specifically to message me because I won’t use whatsapp. The PIN reminders are annoying it enough to be legitimately holding it back from mass appeal imho
Turn them off
The fact that it’s opt-out is already a reason to push people away from the app
I think it was meant as a security feature in case someone picked up your unlocked phone. It perhaps someone cracked your front screen passcode. I know if you forget your password and have to reset it you lose all previous conversations. It’s very secure this way. Bit of a pain… but secure.
That’s not even what it is lol.
And as the other commenter alluded to, defaults matter. You’re not replacing the thing everyone is already using by pitching “here’s an alternative that is better in ways which don’t affect your usage at all, and also you have to dig into the settings to turn off the optional daily popups”
Yeah someone who cares enough about security to switch to Signal in the first place will be willing to go into the settings to get everything just the way they like it, but everybody else will only keep the app if it doesn’t bug them.
They are monthly not daily popups. They are daily at the start kust to make sure you memorize your PIN, then they peter off.
However if you ignore a monthly one then it doesn’t disturb you until the next monthly reminder. What is the point of a PIN if it can be ignored?
I would like nothing more, but so few of my contact group are willing to switch away… despite all of Meta’s bullshit. I resent being made to use it whilst their AI/ads encroach further and further.
Humans are too stupid to switch from convenience to slightly less convenience even if they get privacy for free. Any amount of discomfort is too much and changing an app is basically death.
They see no value in it. They don’t see that privacy is proactive measure that can protect you.
On Facebook, especially in my family, accounts get lost and hacked. One fine day, it might be someone with more influence in the family who’s attacker might make off with stolen bank information or passwords.
but “that’ll never happen”, right?
I got tired of asking my family to download yet another app. Went iPhone at this point.
How many apps did you ask them to download?
Personally, I only asked for this one, and everyone who is of importance to me chose to do it.
TIL I have no family I care to keep in touch with and I have no friends.
I don’t use Signal because they don’t release the app in F-Droid. Signal devs refuse to release the app outside of Google Play Store, which is very evil.
You can use Molly from F-Droid. They even have a full FOSS version that you can set up a self hosted notification socket for, to avoid Google Firebase.
I don’t, the GrapheneOS folks say that F-Droid is a potential security catastrophe.
You can find Molly from Accrescent (and apparently also from F-Droid if you must use that), which is not so much a security catastrophe.
You can download the APK once from the website, after that it updates automatically. https://signal.org/android/apk/
I know I can. But the hostility of Signal devs to open source and F-Droid makes me uncomfortable. Why use an app with such hostility?
I use obtainium to install it and it works flawlessly. The reason they don’t publish it elsewhere is due to licences and push notifications iirc
