I don’t know, I’m principally against the death penalty. Don’t get me wrong, I won’t lose sleep if a nazi is granted an early exit, and it’s of course fine to kill nazis in video games since it’s not real. Also, I do like the revolutionary energy of those stickers, I understand where they’re coming from (the goal is to make nazis afraid and I’m all in on that!). Still, they advocate for stuff outside of my morality. I’m fine removing power from nazis, by force if necessary (usually is because they’re assholes who don’t give a crap about the social contract) but I don’t see killing anyone (or anything) as something to be desired, I can only agree with it when it’s a self-defense/survival type scenario. I guess one exception would be if it’s someone like Putin: well guarded, very difficult to apprehend, and kills people by the day for every day he’s not stopped, so it kind of makes it a self-defense/survival thing even if it would have to be planned in advance.
I think for a lot of people, they’d normally be right there with you, and as you mentioned with self defense, the more people are pushed into survival-mode against someone hell-bent on destroying you, it starts to feel like destroying Nazis is the moral thing to do. Are you familiar with the Paradox of Tolerance? If you tolerate intolerance, it will take over society, so one could argue you must never tolerate intolerance. With Nazis being the real world embodiment of this paradox, extending that reasoning, the morally responsible thing to do is to destroy Nazis any time and place they spring up.
You say “destroy” but you mean murder. That’s not okay. I know the Paradox of Tolerance, and it doesn’t say to jump to straight-up murder. That should never be the first thought, it should be the worst case scenario.
No offense, but they would murder you without a second thought, without remorse, and without any shame whatsoever. They would be banking on getting a pardon for it, too. It happened to the Jan 6 traitors, it happened to the Nisour Square Massacre bastards, Ross Ulbricht got a pardon even though he literally tried to hire a hitman to kill two federal agents (those same feds were also thieves and corrupt and got busted for their crap). This shit isn’t cool, but they treat it like it is.
The whole cartoon hero/villain dynamic of ‘I am not like you, I will not do that’ should only happen AFTER they are thoroughly defeated and no longer capable of harming you, then you can put them up on trial and show them no mercy in the court room.
The situation with the Gaza genocide and the extreme corruption at higher levels completely altered my view of the death penalty. I used to be 100% against the death penalty, but now I am only against it for common criminals and common crimes. People like Ted Cruz and the BTK killer (a mass shooter and serial killer respectively) should rot in prison for the rest of their lives, but war criminals like Netenyahu and IDF foot soldiers who commit war crimes need to be executed with all haste and minimal appeals. Ditto for ‘businessmen’ like Musk and Zuckerberg who thrive on fucking people’s lives over. This goes for high level politicians like Trump and Duterte (who was recently arrested).
Simply put, let the punishment match the scale of the crime. Some armed robber should not receive a harsher sentence for robbing and killing a shop owner than a multinational corporate CEO whose decisions involved crashing entirely economies just so he can spite someone online.
Murder sucks, but sometimes letting them continue is worse. If they remove other options for justice then justice must be served in whatever form is left.
There’s always more options. However, there needs to be a point where you don’t let them keep going. Sure, we could have continued to negotiate with Hitler instead of going to war. At some point you have to accept that the thing you’ve been trying to avoid is the best option left.
Look. You need a lot of people to actually fight this thing, millions actually, and it’s preferable this fight happens while there’s still a pretense of democracy left.
Yes, it’s helpful to frame the fight around Musk to get the point across, and you can be as mean and threatening towards him as you want — but don’t forget you’re up against a whole system here, not just Musk! If someone actually did something to him, you’d get martial law the next day and everyone vaguely leftist would get shot in the head. You don’t want that!
Get people on your side, organize, and attack the system, and do it as legally as possible. Make them (by which I mean the party, starting with local officials) afraid of how many of you there are. Use Musk as the symbol of evil around which to get people angry, don’t advocate for someone to make him a martyr…
To a lot people, the analogy is that the dangerous criminal with a gun has already broken in and is aiming the gun at them, they’re in survival mode, and are not looking for non-violent solutions. I get your perspective, just trying to show you why so many are saying to “shoot the Nazis”.
I don’t know, I’m principally against the death penalty. Don’t get me wrong, I won’t lose sleep if a nazi is granted an early exit, and it’s of course fine to kill nazis in video games since it’s not real. Also, I do like the revolutionary energy of those stickers, I understand where they’re coming from (the goal is to make nazis afraid and I’m all in on that!). Still, they advocate for stuff outside of my morality. I’m fine removing power from nazis, by force if necessary (usually is because they’re assholes who don’t give a crap about the social contract) but I don’t see killing anyone (or anything) as something to be desired, I can only agree with it when it’s a self-defense/survival type scenario. I guess one exception would be if it’s someone like Putin: well guarded, very difficult to apprehend, and kills people by the day for every day he’s not stopped, so it kind of makes it a self-defense/survival thing even if it would have to be planned in advance.
Not when it comes to the fash.
They do not get even the barest semblance of sympathy, mercy, or benefit of the doubt. Ever.
The only way to make Nazis afraid again is to warn them, in their own language: violence.
(removed — sorry this thread is too fedposty for my liking)
I think for a lot of people, they’d normally be right there with you, and as you mentioned with self defense, the more people are pushed into survival-mode against someone hell-bent on destroying you, it starts to feel like destroying Nazis is the moral thing to do. Are you familiar with the Paradox of Tolerance? If you tolerate intolerance, it will take over society, so one could argue you must never tolerate intolerance. With Nazis being the real world embodiment of this paradox, extending that reasoning, the morally responsible thing to do is to destroy Nazis any time and place they spring up.
You say “destroy” but you mean murder. That’s not okay. I know the Paradox of Tolerance, and it doesn’t say to jump to straight-up murder. That should never be the first thought, it should be the worst case scenario.
No offense, but they would murder you without a second thought, without remorse, and without any shame whatsoever. They would be banking on getting a pardon for it, too. It happened to the Jan 6 traitors, it happened to the Nisour Square Massacre bastards, Ross Ulbricht got a pardon even though he literally tried to hire a hitman to kill two federal agents (those same feds were also thieves and corrupt and got busted for their crap). This shit isn’t cool, but they treat it like it is.
The whole cartoon hero/villain dynamic of ‘I am not like you, I will not do that’ should only happen AFTER they are thoroughly defeated and no longer capable of harming you, then you can put them up on trial and show them no mercy in the court room.
The situation with the Gaza genocide and the extreme corruption at higher levels completely altered my view of the death penalty. I used to be 100% against the death penalty, but now I am only against it for common criminals and common crimes. People like Ted Cruz and the BTK killer (a mass shooter and serial killer respectively) should rot in prison for the rest of their lives, but war criminals like Netenyahu and IDF foot soldiers who commit war crimes need to be executed with all haste and minimal appeals. Ditto for ‘businessmen’ like Musk and Zuckerberg who thrive on fucking people’s lives over. This goes for high level politicians like Trump and Duterte (who was recently arrested).
Simply put, let the punishment match the scale of the crime. Some armed robber should not receive a harsher sentence for robbing and killing a shop owner than a multinational corporate CEO whose decisions involved crashing entirely economies just so he can spite someone online.
I think you missed the point. I mean Justifiable homicide. That’s exactly how grave the threat here is, and not just for minorities.
e: for the record, i am the most non-violent person i know. I won’t kill a fly, even flies deserve to live. I have no such feelings towards Nazis
Murder sucks, but sometimes letting them continue is worse. If they remove other options for justice then justice must be served in whatever form is left.
You can’t tell me the only form of resistance left right now is murder…
There’s always more options. However, there needs to be a point where you don’t let them keep going. Sure, we could have continued to negotiate with Hitler instead of going to war. At some point you have to accept that the thing you’ve been trying to avoid is the best option left.
Look. You need a lot of people to actually fight this thing, millions actually, and it’s preferable this fight happens while there’s still a pretense of democracy left.
Yes, it’s helpful to frame the fight around Musk to get the point across, and you can be as mean and threatening towards him as you want — but don’t forget you’re up against a whole system here, not just Musk! If someone actually did something to him, you’d get martial law the next day and everyone vaguely leftist would get shot in the head. You don’t want that!
Get people on your side, organize, and attack the system, and do it as legally as possible. Make them (by which I mean the party, starting with local officials) afraid of how many of you there are. Use Musk as the symbol of evil around which to get people angry, don’t advocate for someone to make him a martyr…
To a lot people, the analogy is that the dangerous criminal with a gun has already broken in and is aiming the gun at them, they’re in survival mode, and are not looking for non-violent solutions. I get your perspective, just trying to show you why so many are saying to “shoot the Nazis”.