- cross-posted to:
- programmerhumor@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- programmerhumor@lemmy.ml
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Incredibly true for me these days. But don’t fret, shellcheck and tldp.org is all you need. And maybe that one stackoverflow answer about how to get the running script’s directory
Me with powershell. I’ll write a pretty complex script, not write powershell for 3 months, come back and have to completely relearn it.
I feel same with regex…
Regex
You always forget regex syntax?
I’ve always found it simple to understand and remember. Even over many years and decades, I’ve never had issues reading or writing simple regex syntax (excluding the flags and shorthands) even after long regex breaks.
It’s not about the syntax itself, it’s about which syntax to use. There are different ones and remembering which one is for which language is tough.
This is exactly it. Regex is super simple. The difficulty is maintaining a mental mapping between language/util <-> regex engine <-> engine syntax & character class names. It gets worse when utils also conditionally enable extended syntaxes with flags or options.
The hardest part is remembering whether you need to use
\wor[:alnum:].Way too few utils actually mention which syntax they use too. Most just say something accepts a “regular expression”, which is totally ambiguous.
I give you that, true. I wish vim had PCRE
There is the “very magic” mode for vim regexes. It’s not the exact PCRE syntax, but it’s pretty close. You only need to add \v before the expression to use it. There is no permanent mode / option though. (I think you can remap the commands, like / to /\v)
Most of regex is pretty basic and easy to learn, it’s the look ahead and look behind that are the killers imo
(?=)for positive lookahead and(?!)for negative lookahead. Stick a<in the middle for lookbehind.
You get used to it, I don’t even see the code—I just see: group… pattern… read-ahead…
No. Learn it properly once and you’re good. Also it’s super handy in vim.
interns gonna intern
twitch
Don’t let the gatekeepers keep you out. This site helps.
Chatgpt helps even more
I know that LLMs are probably very helpful for people who are just getting started, but you will never understand it if you can’t grasp the fundamentals. Don’t let “AI” make you lazy. If you do use LLMs make sure you understand the output it’s giving you enough to replicate it yourself.
This may not be applicable to you specifically, but I think this is nice info to have here for others.
This is one of the best uses for LLM’s imo. They do all my regex for me.
I don’t normally say this, but the AI tools I’ve used to help me write bash were pretty much spot on.
For building a quick template that I can tweak to my needs, it works really well. I just don’t find it to be an intuitive scripting language.
Yeah, an LLM can quickly parrot some basic boilerplate that’s showed up in its training data a hundred times.
Yes, with respect to the grey bearded uncles and aunties; as someone who never “learned” bash, in 2025 I’m letting a LLM do the bashing for me.
Until the magic incantations you don’t bother to understand don’t actually do what you think they’re doing.
Yes, I have never wrote a piece of code that didn’t do what I thought it would before LLMs, no sir.
I wonder if there’s a chance of getting
rm -rf /*or zip bombs. Those are definitely in the training data at least.The classic
rm -rf $ENV/homewhere$ENVcan be empty or contain spaces is definitely going to hit someone one day
Sounds like a problem for future me. That guy hates me lol
Yeah fuck that guy
In fairness, this also happens to me when I write the bash script myself 😂
Any no-SQL syntax for interacting with databases.
Bash substitution is regex-level wizardry.
Slapping a $ before an environment variable name is “wizardry?”
Not quite that, but more the
${variable##.*}sort of thing.Right, so that’s just the string manipulation functions. I already posted a link to the bible for this following a different reply to the same comment to which you replied.
Back then, a pain in the ass. Nowadays, I just let an AI handle that. I used this crap for years and years and still cannot remember, which symbols you need in which order. And why should I remember? I’m not the computer. The computer should know, not me.
interns be interning
Nope, the whole
{variable/regex/replacement}syntaxAll the string manipulation functions are easy: https://tldp.org/LDP/abs/html/string-manipulation.html
This one is my bookmark
Every time I have to do this I always go here. I can never remember the prefix suffix parts next time I do parameter substitution.
There’s always the old piece of wisdom from the Unix jungle: “If you write a complex shellscript, sooner or later you’ll wish you wrote it in a real programming language.”
I wrote a huge PowerShell script over the past few years. I was like “Ooh, guess this is a resume item if anyone asks me if I know PowerShell.” …around the beginning of the year I rewrote the bloody thing in Python and I have zero regrets. It’s no longer a Big Mush of Stuff That Does a Thing. It’s got object orientation now. Design patterns. Things in independent units. Shit like that.
I consider python a scripting language too.
I use it for scripting too. I don’t need Python as much as before nowaday.
They’re all programming languages, they all have their places.
All scripting languages are programming languages but not all programming languages are scripting languages
I initially read “UNIX jungle” as “UNIX jingle” and thought I had been really missing out!
You have, look up the SuSE songs.
Today I tried to write bash (I think)
I grabbed a bunch of commands, slapped a bunch of “&&” to string them together and saved them to a .sh file.
It didn’t work as expected and I did not, at all, look at any documentation during the process. (This is obviously on me, I’ll try harder next time)
Remember to make the .sh file executable with chmod +x
I try to remember to use man when learning a new command/program. And I almost always half-ass it and press the search button immediately to find whatever flag i need.
Clearly you don’t write enough bash scripts.
Or scripts for basically any other variant of the Bourne shell. They are, for the most part, very cross compatible.
That’s the only reason I’ve ever done much of anything in shell script. As a network administrator I’ve worked many network appliances running on some flavor of Unix and the one language I can count on to be always available is bash. It has been well worth knowing for just that reason.
I wrote a script to do backups on a ESXi it uses Busybox’s ASH, one thing I learned after spending hours debugging my scripts was that ASH does not support arrays so you have to do everything with temporary files.
There actually is an array in any POSIX shell. You get one array per file/function. It just feels bad to use it. You can abuse ‘set – 1 2 3 4’ to act as a proper array. You can then use ‘for’ without ‘in’ to iterate over it.
for i; do echo $i; done.
Use shift <number> to pop items off.
If I really have to use something more complex, I’ll reach for mkfifo instead so I can guarantee the data can only be consumed once without manipulating entries.
Enough is enough
I’ve had enough of these motherfucking scripts on this motherfucking PC!
When I bash my head into a wall, does that count?
Only if you scripted it
This is why I finally switched to nushell.
I love Nushell
I’d been considering it for awhile, but thought it wasn’t worth the trouble of switching until I realized just how often I do things the tedious manual way because writing a bash script to do it is so arcane
Wait im not the only one? I think i relearned bash more times than i can remember.
Ever since I switched to Fish Shell, I’ve had no issues remembering anything. Ported my entire catalogue of custom scripts over to fish and everything became much cleaner. More legible, and less code to accomplish the same things. Easier argument parsing, control structures, everything. Much less error prone IMO.
Highly recommend it. It’s obviously not POSIX or anything, but I find that the cost of installing fish on every machine I own is lower than maintaining POSIX-compliant scripts.
Enjoy your scripting!
I’ve been meaning to check out
fish. Thanks for the reminder!Happy adventuring! ✨
I switched to fish a while back, but haven’t learned how to script in it yet. Sounds like I should learn
I love fish but sadly it has no proper equivalent of
set -eas far as I know.|| return;in every line is not a solution.If you’re going to write scripts that requires installing software, might as well use something like python though? Most Linux distros ship also ship with python installed
A shell script can be much more agile, potent, and concise, depending on the use case.
E.g. if you want to make a facade (wrapper) around a program, that’s much cleaner in
$SHELL. All you’re doing is checking which keyword/command the user wanted, and then executing the commands associated with what you want to achieve, like maybe displaying a notification and updating a global environment variable or something.Executing a bunch of commands and chaining their output together in python is surely much more cumbersome than just typing them out next to each other separated by a pipe character. It’s higher-level. 👍
If it’s just text in text out though, sure, mostly equivalent, but for me this is rarely the use case for a script.
I’m not anti bash or fish, I’ve written in both just this week, but if we’re talking about readability/syntax as this post is about, and you want an alternative to bash, I’d say python is a more natural alternative. Fish syntax is still fairly ugly compared to most programming languages in my opinion.
Different strokes for different folks I suppose.
I wish I could but since I use bash at work (often on embedded systems so no custom scripts or anything that isn’t source code) I just don’t want to go back and forth between the two.
It’s the default on CachyOS and I’ve been enjoying it. I typically use zsh.
That’s why I use nushell. Very convinient for writing scripts that you can understand. Obviously, it cannot beat Python in terms of prototyping, but at least I don’t have to relearn it everytime.
Nu is great. Using it since many years. Clearly superior shell. Only problem is, that it constantly faces breaking changes and you therefore need to frequently update your modules.
Not a problem for me in Nix, seems like a skill issue /j
They’ve slowed down with those a bit recently, haven’t they?
Yesterday, I upgraded from
0.101.0to0.102.0anddate to-tablewas replaced equally (actually better) withinto record, however it was not documented well in the error. Had to research for 5 to 10 minutes, which does not sound much, but if you get this like every second version, the amount of time adds up quickly.Actually had been deprecated beforehand, you should have gotten a warning. The deprecation cycle certainly is quite short, I’m still on 0.100.0, If I were to upgrade now I’d jump the version with the warning.
Not really. They’ve been on the stabilising path for about two years now, removing stuff like dataframes from the default feature set to be able to focus on stabilising the whole core language, but 1.0 isn’t out yet and the minor version just went three digits.
And it’s good that way. The POSIX CLI is a clusterfuck because it got standardised before it got stabilised.
dd’s syntax is just the peak of the iceberg, there, you gotta take out the nail scissors and manicure the whole lawn before promising that things won’t change.Even in its current state it’s probably less work for many scripts, though. That is, updating things, especially if you version-lock (hello, nixos) will be less of a headache than writing
shcould ever be. nushell is a really nice language, occasionally a bit verbose but never in the boilerplate for boilerplate’s sake way, but in the “In two weeks I’ll be glad it’s not perl” way. Things like command line parsing are ludicrously convenient (though please nushell people land collecting repeated arguments into lists).
We have someone at work who uses it and he’s constantly having tooling issues due to compatibility problems, so… yeah.
I’m sure it’s fine for sticking in the shebang and writing your own one-off personal scripts, but I would never actually main it. Too much ecosystem relies on bash/posix stuff.
So the alternative is:
- either an obtuse script that works everywhere, or
- a legible script that only works on your machine…
a script that only works on your machine
That’s why docker exists :D
Ruby and calling bash like this
`cat a.txt`I am of the opinion that production software shouldn’t be written in shell languages. If it’s something which needs to be redistributed, I would write it in python or something
I tend to write anything for distribution in Rust or something that compiles to a standalone binary. Python does not an easily redistributable application make lol
Yeah but then you either need to compile and redistribute binaries for several platforms, or make sure that each target user has rust/cargo installed. Plus some devs don’t trust compiled binaries in something like an npm package
For a bit of glue, a shell script is fine. A start script, some small utility gadget…
With python, you’re not even sure that the right version is installed unless you ship it with the script.
I try to write things to be cross-platform; with node builds, I avoid anything using shell scripting so that we can support Windows builds as well. As such, I usually write the deployment scripts in Node itself, but sometimes python if it’s supported by our particular CI/CD pipeline
I keep forgetting windows exists.
Most common development platform in the world
I quit using it in the WfW days and never looked back.
VLOOKUP. Every time. Also Catan Cities and Knights.
