I’m not in the US, but it seems to me that the Republicans keep breaking norms and procedures, including politicising impeachment and ignoring illegal, immoral and plain bad conduct.
They also seem to be fine with not applying the same standard across the isle.
On the other hand, either Democrats follow new precedent, with even more devolving, or they keep the old decorum and get their asses kicked by Republican foul play.
What ways out of this spiral are there?
The only way I see out of it is not a way I like or am willing to talk about online. Let’s just say the second amendment is making more and more sense every day.
At this point? Probably not. Not if history is any indication. We’ve blown right past all the checkpoints that would have prevented this snowball effect. Our legislative processes are almost too irreparably damaged for a healthy democracy to exist. We’ve removed too many regulations regarding money in our politics and not placed enough regulations on the focus of power on individuals and entities within our government.
We’re probably going to go through a really dark period where the quality of life is going to decline, rights will be stripped, and a lot of vulnerable people are going to die and then, hopefully, things will get bad enough that a revolution happens. It won’t be like WW2 where more powerful forces come to our rescue. We’ll have to do it ourselves. And I don’t really have that much faith in our populace doing that. Again, it will take a really significant decline in quality of life for damn near everyone before that’s even possible. It looks like that’s where we’re headed though.
Sadly, I think you’re right.
It’s absurd that the wealthiest people in the world are making all the decisions that effect the rest of us, especially when they’re using that control to influence the rest of us through social media.
I think the only solution is a revolution where wealth is redistributed, probably through violence.
Bezos and Musks assets should just be nationalised. Give them pensions of 10m a year or something in return.
The rich coastal states that can bail out should definitely do so. Cascadia now!
As a non-American, it’s always looked to me like the Republicans manage to get their shit done whether they’re in charge or not and the Democrats are just there to assure everyone they have a choice in voting and not much else.
The whole thing to me looks like a game of good cop / bad cop. Bad cop comes along beats the shit out you, and then good cop comes along to give you a cup of weak shit coffee as a consolation for your black eye and says something unconvincing about being unhappy with bad cop’s behaviour, before letting bad cop back in to beat the shit out of you some more.
And for every cycle of that, bad cop achieves his goals while good cop just acts as a glorified tea lady that tries to make sure you don’t have any hard feelings about bad cop.
Find me a philosophy or religious perspective that is unambiguous about brute force.
It’s effective as long as one doesn’t consider the consequences, but the reality of nearly every situation is such that there’s always a better way. Did the US need to nuke two Japanese cities and every inhabitant during WW2? Or were they just too tired, scared of a war of attrition and with the technological option available, they took the easier path?
Republicans getting “shit done”? What a schizo take, unless you mean just generally fucking shit up.
Destroying shit is what they said they’d do. They did it. Therefore they got their shit done.
The problem is that it’s far easier to destroy than build. They suck at building anything. They can’t even build walls. Governing is building. They can’t govern. So they mash the easy button and destroy instead.
“Destroying shit is what we’re going to do” is what the libs hear/see, the average trump voter genuinely thinks he’s actually going to make things better/fulfill his promises.
Libs see the actions for what they are. Farces. Pointless. Things that have no bearing in making anyone’s situation better - unless by “better” it means pissing off the libs. BS like changing the Gulf’s name. Removing sign language from government sites. The only meaningful actions trump takes are the ones to enrich himself and his cronies, remove oversight, or remove challenges to their narrative.
As in “getting their shit done.”
Most of what the clowns promise never gets done. But I agree that their grift is accomplished wonderfully.
Mouseland may have been written about Canada but it also applies to the USA.
it’s always looked to me like the Republicans manage to get their shit done
This is at least partly propaganda but for sure they succeed in misleading and confusing
The shit republicans get done tends to be
- destroying is easier than building
- misleading is easier than actually doing
- “flood the zone with shit and see what sticks”
- just claim success enough times that people believe it
Wait for the Germans to liberate you, I guess.
Or Mexico tbh, wait until the civil war is spent and watch the cartels roll in
They’re sliding back into Nazism too.
Yeah, but they’re still a lot less Nazi than the USA were in 1939.
The US wasn’t run by Nazis in 1939 though. The same (rather popular) guy who was President in 1939 was President in 1941.
It’s very possible Germany becomes run by Nazis again.
It is not possible at all. No one familiar with German law and culture think this. This is not a talking point I have ever heard discussed seriously. There ist probably hundreds of reasons why it could never happen. Our legal framework ist very strong and we have a strong civil framework of resistance in case something goes in that direction.
It’s very possible Germany becomes run by Nazis again.
Nope. Not a chance. I do see how it looks like it could, though.
There’s around 25% convinced right wing supporters in Germany. That number hasn’t changed all that much in decades.
Now shit looks bad cause all 25% feel empowered and have rallied behind a single party, instead of being split into reluctant conservative voters, non-voters and a few hardcore Nazi party voters like in the past.
But 25% aren’t enough to take over our system. Our entire country was specifically designed to prevent that, from top to bottom.
We’re in ‘if you can’t beat them, join them’ mode.
Invest every dollar you can spare, because that’s the only way to win in any of this. Both ruling parties care far more about your stock portfolio succeeding than they do about you.
No they don’t give a shit about you they care about their stock portfolio. This is true for both parties’ leadership. Consider inside testing in the debate/house with no legitimate oversight.
Fuck you i got mine and all.
Investing is the only way to get ahead on an individual financial basis, but it feeds the machine. They win more from it than you.
Our capital to bargain with is labor and civility. This is why they want to replace us with AI while blocking alternate means to survive. If AI can do it we lose leverage.
Hardly, the leverage was always violence.
I meant to say civility is a bargaining chip we can take away. I can see how that can be misinterpreted
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It’s not written in cosmic law that this will occur. The circumstance are certainly leaning in that direction though.
They learned from 2020. So must any opposition evolve. But yeah, moving away from fascism is going to take some blood on both sides. Arguably better than sticking with it where only one side’s blood is shed.
A general strike is probably the best place to start. There’s still a lot that needs to happen to get the placated middle to see the need for more aggressive means.
UAW is organizing one for 2028.
2028 might as well be 3028, feels like
Yes. All modern human civilization will collapse with the coming climate change.
Something that might be useful is a general strike (see https://sh.itjust.works/post/9745322 and https://sh.itjust.works/post/31602246 also). It would be nice for more people to be unionized in preparation for that. I suspect that it would be better to start unionizing for jobs that more people have (like Personal Care Aides or people working in a retail store or fast food restaurant), since after having a union contract is more normalized it’d probably be easier for people like medical doctors or pilots or lawyers to have a union contract.
I’m personally interested in electoral reform (see !rcv@ponder.cat and !fairvote@lemmy.ca also), such that I wouldn’t have to worry as much about coordinating with other people before I vote. However, it’s guaranteed that someone will always be dissatisfied with the results of an election that isn’t unanimous, so that might not be a complete solution. A more general solution might be to handle more things locally with voluntary organizations. Another option could be to generally devolve power to local institutions (like to a state government or municipality) or to create more independent institutions that are directly accountable to the government of the United States but can act autonomously (like the Federal Reserve System) so that less is dependent on the Congress or the President, and then to reduce the authority of more powerful institutions. If some states withdrew or were expelled from the United States of America that might help (since the power of an expelled state and a post-expulsion United States of America would naturally be more local, and the power of each would also affect less territory).
I like your suggestions and I think they’d go a long way towards preventing the current situation to spontaneously happen again.
But I don’t think I see a path toward it until someone consolidates power to then create stability enough for these types of policies to be approachable.
I can’t see neither Florida nor the Senate voting (anytime soon) for anything like that decentralisation of power.
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I agree and it’s what I’m trying to lean into. I’ve been thinking of democracy as a verb or a muscle that has atrophied in me. Corporations certainly aren’t democratic, and most systems we live in nowadays don’t lend themselves towards democratic modes of engagement. My goal is to learn more about unions and look at mutual aid groups and tenant unions and look at examples in American history when people were more civically engaged and try to do more.
The nazis and religious zealots should continue to have their free speech and be able to parade, but they need to be shunned back to the recesses of popularity and life where they were scorned and looked at with disgust and their points were not granted the dignity to be engaged with in ‘debate’. Instead they are now treated as a spectacle and a disbelief that anyone even truly believes those things. They also successfully framed the discussion that they have reason and science on their side, and culturally we all need to understand they are ten pounds of shit in a five pound bag.
I’ll suggest that the nazis and fanatics don’t get to express their nazi or fanatical views.
You can check out Popper’s Paradox/Paradox of Tolerance, which suggests that a tolerant society must counteract intolerance or it spreads to destroy all tolerance.
You’re probably right, I basically agree too, but idk. It just doesn’t seem to ever stop a zealot or a nazi or the spread of their ideology. Not to mention in America it’s basically every zealous evangelists wet dream that one day their bible will be illegal and their gospel will be silenced by the government - they’ve been saying it’ll happen for decades. I’d rather them say what they truly think out loud and for our culture to not tolerate it by collectively being disgusted and enraged and having no pity for if they do get hurt. Like I wish that no one would care or be surprised if someone that says ‘the gays and black culture are degenerate and are agents of demons and Jews’ get their ass beat because they basically should, but to make it law and have the courts and government do it? Idk. Seems like a trap to me. I just want cops to turn a blind eye and no one be surprised if a nazi gets punched. But idk Germany seems to be doing fine with it being illegal. It’s probably just some bs free speech absolutism Ive picked up being American.
You’re not wrong, but I don’t see the relevance to the topic? Unless this is part of the public revolt?
Organising to protect immigrants in your area is admirable, but how do you get rid of the necessity to do that? You’ll have to replace the politicians, no?
And you’ll probably need to be revolution sized and well organised to be able to do that when they ignore any procedure or deal that doesn’t benefit them in the specific moment.
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When has there been a revolution without a revolt in all of history?
When has there been a 180° change without a revolution in all of history?
In much of the world, Unions were forged in blood of many revolts.
Nation separation and independence was almost exclusively revolution.
Even the civil rights (which most people have been whitewashed into thinking was peaceful) had the black panthers. They have been completely villified, but the civil rights movement would not have succeeded without their willingness to use violence.
History has shown time and time again that violence works and peaceful movements are stamped out 99% of the time.
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I believe this is the right video. It should go a long way to answering your question.
Top down organization of political parties like the Democrats in the US is relatively new. Last 50+ years or so, and antidemocratic. Look to when the Democratic party was much better for the average man. And one of the differences you’ll see was it was much more bottom up. Local organization and community building is vital. Not just for left anarchist/libertarians like myself. But to any common man looking for a political party to represent them. Leaving leadership to their own devices is how leadership became so out of touch.
Iirc, Reagan was the first to strongarm a party line and establish the strategy of voting for power over anything which has proven very effective, with courts, gerrymandering, and stalled electoral reforms very helpful to form this current opportunity.
But with the current system where it is, I have trouble seeing any such grass roots being able to accomplish much until they gain a majority enough, for long enough to re-establish the checks & balances. Electoral voting and the two party system makes it incredibly hard for a new party to establish, and even then they will get bogged down in the same malintent behaviour exhibited now. At least enough to appear powerless, ineffectual or otherwise not making change enough to keep taking seats, like the Democrats of the last few cycles.
Do you envision some kind of path short of a revolution to throw out the current politicians?
We don’t need a new party though. And no one should be arguing for one. As it would be ineffectual until we change the system as you said. What we need is local and Community leadership for the Democratic Party. What we need is to not leave the leadership decisions up to those in Washington.
Yes top down leadership can be very effective. But not in the long term. Otherwise the Soviet Union would still exist. Otherwise our parties would still represent us. If we want a party to start representing us again. We need to stop making it them and us. And just make it us. And the only way to do that is to stop relying on someone to lead nationally. Start leading locally. With the national parties only duties to coordinate between new York Democrats, Florida Democrats, Missouri Democrats, and California Democrats. And we get there by community action.
Am I understanding you correctly that you’re advocating for grassroots campaigning for the Democrats?
As in: drumming up public support to vote in a Democrat majority, presumably in the hopes of creating a long term Democrat rule where they could address the checks & balances, the skewed system, the dysfunctional ethics and decorum situation, etc.?
That would indeed be a path forward, but I’m worried that the Republicans would counter campaign very hard, and as proved aren’t hesitant to use any trick they can to not give up power.
It’s what historically worked, but is it still feasible?
Not for national Democrats. State and local Democrats. In a red state like mine. The state apparatus is practically non existent. Republicans run unopposed almost as often as they run against a non Republican. Which includes non Democrats.
Small towns and hamlets organizing as for instance in my case, Missouri Democrats. Run by locals, for locals. Who don’t prostrate themselves at the foot of the National Party as a simple reaction. That would go against the national party when it serves their interests.
Yes the fascists have spent decades putting out antidemocrat propaganda. But when it’s Dave from a few blocks over running. Not some faceless person largely supported by groups outside the state. That sort of propaganda tends to fall flat when they can’t "other” you.
Do this in enough towns and possibly get one of the smaller cities. All of a sudden, the state arm of the National Party might hold less influence than you do. It would be rather easy to force them into irrelevance with something like that. Which is what needs to be done.
It is 100% feasible. When you have a connection to a group to a party. One that’s local and accountable to you. They can try to spread whatever lies they want about it. The people who deal with them will know the truth. Propaganda really only works, and works best about groups you have no real contact with or understanding of. It’s how and why Communists and Jews were targeted in 1930s Germany. They were harmless minorities. But most people didn’t have any stake in defending them or knowing them. So they were easy targets. It’s why the fascist today are targeting trans people and immigrants. A lot of people don’t knowingly have contact of any note with these groups. So they don’t know that the fascists are lying and misrepresenting things. Granted with basic critical thinking skills they should know. But critical thinking skills are not something we value in America unfortunately. Not that we are alone.
Politicians decide things, but to actually make stuff happen, the government needs to collect taxes to pay for services that are then provided to the public. I think the idea here is to take out the middleman. You won’t solve the problem country wide, but you’ll help some people, and that’s still worth it. Work together without like-minded people locally, be an inspiration, and show that it works. I’ve only been very briefly part of an activist group (specialized in food saving), so probably best to look elsewhere for good advice on how to do this well.
You are correct in your noticing Democrats have been the party of decorum - and that’s the penultimate refuge of the incompetent before violence. So, now we’ve established that the two-ply paper-thin veneer of legitimacy has unraveled, what should we do?
There are ways out of this. None of them are easy.
Vote with your wallet, vote in primaries. Go to community board meetings. Speak up, even if you’re afraid of what anyone might think. More people will respect you for trying than you’d think, but don’t waste the opportunity on something trivial.
Don’t do business with anyone with destructive politics to the point where it causes you personal/professional inconvenience and costs your money. Support local communities. Talk to the guy on the street corner you always see but never approached. Maybe they can tell you something. Talk to the guy that makes your sandwiches at the store, your bartender, your barista, your cleaning lady, your laundromat people. Hell talk to your drug dealer/street pharmacist. Talk to your coworkers and don’t be scared. If they snitch then you will know indicators better for next time, and trust me - you will survive the mistake. Maybe it’s BS, maybe you’ll realize there’s an angle to help yourself and everyone else. Never do anything unless it helps more people than yourself, and doesn’t have an obvious negative externality that you can account for.
Go to rallies, go to meetings. Show support in public for people you believe in, someone standing up next to you when you stick your neck out counts for more than you can possibly understand. Put yourself on the front line facing armed police. Make the point that you won’t break, and that they can’t scare you. Remain nonviolent until you have no other option, but be prepared when they invent reasons to hurt you withing reason - and remember that they may have thought they never had a choice (even if they did).
This is going to get ugly.
The next time someone annoys or inconveniences you, or says something provocative, ask yourself why, and ask yourself what personal hell they are living in made them do that?
If this sounds a lot like religious nonsense, that’s exactly what it is. That stuff was (arguably flawed and wantonly misinterpreted) attempts to give people a map going forwards. We’ve been putting in an abysmal effort to do better for not only ourselves, but everyone else, and now everyone’s hurting. Some people you can’t help, they’re so stuck into their monomaniacal vision of reality that they don’t care who they’re hurting, even if it’s ultimately themselves through consequence or some other metaphysical mechanism whether you believe in it or not.
Find a community, build a community. Be a leader and set a better example for everyone around you.
It may already be too late but your actions going forwards from here will determine what survives, and whether THAT is worth saving.
And remember - it’s not just humans. There are many other living beings on this planet that don’t have the technological capacity, legal status or physical ability to make themselves heard, and our status demands at very least the acknowledgement of some form of responsible stewardship.
Good Luck.
To all of us.
War.
Maybe. How are we going to responsibly fight one?
Good luck. Feels pretty pointless over here right now.
Don’t get sad - get angry
I’ve been angry since I’ve been politically aware and I’m tired of it. It’s exhausting being angry and having no influence.
I’m too old to be angry all the time.
I still remember being taught about how politics is America is a pendulum.
It swings too far to the right and people get pissed and send it leftward. Then it swings too far to the left and people get pissed and send it rightward.
I have waited my entire life for the swing leftward, and I think I identified what broke America.
Let’s say that this pendulum swinging is necessary, we are a pack of goldfish swinging from left to right looking for something good with short short memories. This system can be metastable, you don’t make a ton of progress on anything but you just sorta bounce between the two sides and the status quo sticks around and you don’t slide into madness.
When 9/11 happened and Ws war on terror emerged, I worried that it would break the system. But in 2008, Obama emerged with a progressive message of hope and change. The pendulum I was told about was about to swing left. I had lived through the right swing of Ws time in office, and now I got to see what the left had to offer (which as a leftist was very exciting).
I watched two phenomenons happen concurrently that broke the system.
- Obama captured the leftward energy that should have swung us back to the left and held it solidly in the center / center-right. He ran as a progressive firebrand and then governed from the center / center right. The big hop and change we got was nationwide Romneycare, a program devised by the Heritage Foundation which has done nothing but entrench the powers of the insurance industry into law.
- Racism broke a large part of the voting public away from reality.
Obama wasn’t the first to do this, Clinton’s triangulation strategy was also a democrat governing from the center.
So we have a captured Democratic Party, beholden to the donor class and they capture the periodic leftswing energy and hold it center / center-right. Things fail to get better and the population goes “well fuck the left doesn’t have any answers, let’s swing the pendulum back the other way”
Over time the result is that the Overton window shifts and shifts and shifts until an oligarch is doing nazi salutes and the corporate media is going “oh he probably isnt really doing a nazi thing, he’s just advancing policies that nazis would love and saying things nazis would say and is excited and you know how hard it is to not do a nazi salute when you are excited.”
Our only hope now is that trump doesn’t slowly boil us into fascism and overplays and the people revolt. But Americans have proven to be willing to just take it in the ass rougher and longer than I’d ever imagine.
It’s more of a ratchet than a pendulum.
But Americans have proven to be willing to just take it in the ass rougher and longer than I’d ever imagine.
For a nation known for being tough guys with guns who will fuck their government, or any government that messes with them, up if necessary, all I’ve actually seen all my life is a bunch of pussies that let the wealthy walk all over us. And I’m not exactly a spring chicken.
Don’t get sad - get organised?
That just sounds like angry with extra steps. And people.
Which is how you gain influence and do something about it, no?
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Considering how little influence those groups already have I doubt it
Join your local advocacy organizations, volunteer and make the difference in your community/local area. It’ll have more impact for you than you can ever do via federal level.
The democrats follow newprecedent to a point but not such that it just breaks the law. Like they would not try to define a sentence in the constitution to invalidate the whole paragraph thus making a paragraph that was written by the founding fathers to nullify itself thus calling the founding fathers brain dead dumb fucks. That being said they did sign off on the patriot act and have not acted to nullify citizens united. I live in the US so I sure as fuck hope we can but its been going on since the 80’s with increasing acceleration. One of my biggest concerns is the most recent coming of age generation has no experience with somewhat sane political discourse.
Nope, i mean other than direct action.
