NixOS’ influence and importance at pushing Linux forward into the (previously) unexplored landscape of configuring your complete system through a single config file is undeniable. It’s been a wild ride, but it was well worth it.

And although it has only been relatively recently that it has lost its niche status, the recent influx of so-called ‘immutable’ distros springing up like mushrooms is undeniably linked to and inspired by NixOS.

However, unfortunately, while this should have been very exciting times for what’s yet to come, the recent drama surrounding the project has definitely tarnished how the project is perceived.

NixOS’ ideas will definitely live on regardless. But how do you envision NixOS’ own future? Any ETA’s for when this drama will end? Which lessons have we learned (so far) from this drama? Are there any winners as a result of this drama? Could something like this happen to any distro?

In case you’re out of the loop. Though, there’s a lot that has transpired since but which hasn’t been rigorously documented at a single place; like how 4 out of 5 NixOS board members have quit over the last 2 months or so.

  • GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml
    0·
    4 months ago

    You have entirely misunderstood or intentionally misconcepted my comment.

    This seems more philosophical than on technicalities. If this is correct, would you mind elaborating on the philosophical side?

    There is no philosophical side. I don’t believe in them getting very major on desktops and laptops. That’s it.

    Even if this were the case, shouldn’t the constant development and continuous improvement result in something that’s (eventually) well-developed?

    Yes but the hype should disappear a long time before it happens. And that’s what I meant by the bubble. It’s very hyped, misunderstood and misused thing now. It will go away and then immutable systems will find their niche or die out.

    And advantages*. Or do you ignore those?

    This looks like an attempt to start a fight or act like the aggressive part of the Nix community. I said immutable systems have advantages and disadvantages (in the next comment I think) but you either didn’t read or decided to just fight instead.

    This is false. What makes you think that?

    Dual system partitions and Flatpaks are both not great for machines that use HDDs.

    What’s “them” in this sentence?

    Old PCs.

    Furthermore, if it is the “old PCs”, doesn’t this directly contradict with “they are unsuitable for old PCs”?

    It doesn’t because Nix doesn’t have the just mentioned disadvantages of immutable systems. Idk why you misunderstood this but imo it seems suspicious of you.

    • bsergay@discuss.onlineOP
      0·
      4 months ago

      Thank you for the quick reply!

      There is no philosophical side. I don’t believe in them getting very major on desktops and laptops. That’s it.

      Alright. Thanks for clarification. Does “getting very major” primarily apply to adoption rate amongst users? Or does it primarily take into account adoption rate amongst distros?

      Yes but the hype should disappear a long time before it happens. And that’s what I meant by the bubble. It’s very hyped, misunderstood and misused thing now. It will go away and then immutable systems will find their niche or die out.

      Clear. Thank you. In your view, how should they be understood and used?

      I said immutable systems have advantages and disadvantages (in the next comment I think)

      I saw the part about advantages right after. However, I also noticed how the first disadvantage was written without nuance. The set of disadvantages and advantages that followed right afterwards was accompanied with “for some” (or something like that IIRC[1]). Therefore, to me at least, it seemed as if you meant that there were disadvantages overall. But some of these disadvantages may be perceived as advantageous to some. Which, I thought was perhaps more in line with the general outlook of your comment. Or at least, my understanding of it*.

      Dual system partitions and Flatpaks are both not great for machines that use HDDs.

      HDDs in general are not great :P . But, “unsuitable” =/= “not great”. So, this does not justify the (previous) usage of “unsuitable”. So, do you still stand behind the earlier use of “unsuitable”?

      Old PCs.

      Thank you for another clarification!

      It doesn’t because Nix doesn’t have the just mentioned disadvantages of immutable systems.

      Interesting.

      I just noticed that I read your “Nix” as “NixOS”. Which is blameworthy*. Uhmm…, so I have to ask for some (more) clarifications then 😜. Did you strictly mean Nix; i.e. the package manager and/or language? Or NixOS? According to you, does NixOS fall into Nix; i.e. simply the system that’s built on Nix?

      This looks like an attempt to start a fight or act like the aggressive part of the Nix community.

      but you either didn’t read or decided to just fight instead.

      Idk why you misunderstood this but imo it seems suspicious of you.

      Fam. Chill. Please. I don’t intend to antagonize or whatsoever 😅. Like, the (overwhelming) majority of my previous comment were queries for clarifications and questioned related to how I initially understood them. There’s no need to make it more than that 😉.

      All in all, thank you for clarifying and answering almost anything I asked. However, the following (I believe) still requires some attention:

      Furthermore, like how do you reconcile this with Fedora’s ambitions for Fedora Atomic?

      To clarify, from my understanding, it seems you regard/view ‘immutable distros’ at best as some niche. Which, to be fair, is absolutely fine. And perhaps you’re right; the future will tell. However, we know what Fedora intends for 2028; i.e. users of Fedora Atomic (and related ‘immutable’ projects led by Fedora) would constitute the majority of its user base. Furthermore, they’ve spoken since 2021 (IIRC) that Fedora Atomic (so likely Fedora Silverblue) will eventually become what people will install for Fedora Workstation. So, their ambition is clear. And their ambition contradicts with how you view it. How do you reconcile this with the fact that other distros (more often than not) join Fedora into whatever direction they depart? Examples of this include systemd, PulseAudio, PipeWire and some might even mention Flatpak and Wayland here.

      1. You’ve since changed your original comment (which is fair), so I’m not able to directly quote*.
      • GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml
        0·
        4 months ago

        OMG that’s a lot of comment lol. My brain is gonna melt when typing a reply to THIS in English. But I guess I can try.

        Does “getting very major” primarily apply to adoption rate amongst users? Or does it primarily take into account adoption rate amongst distros?

        Amongst users. It’s possible that every big and medium distro will have an immutable spin soon but it won’t be too popular.

        In your view, how should they be understood and used?

        I’m sorry but expressing my opinion on it greatly increases the chance of running out of energy which will make my speech absolutely illogical and ridiculous.

        I saw the part about advantages right after. However, I also noticed how the first disadvantage was written without nuance. The set of disadvantages and advantages that followed right afterwards was accompanied with “for some” (or something like that IIRC[1]). Therefore, to me at least, it seemed as if you meant that there were disadvantages overall. But some of these disadvantages may be perceived as advantageous to some. Which, I thought was perhaps more in line with the general outlook of your comment. Or at least, my understanding of it*.

        My brain always returns an “out of memory” error of the if/else solving module if I try to feed it this part so sorry if my response isn’t complete. I indeed made it look like the features of immutable distros are disadvantages to more people than they are advantages to. This is my opinion which might be biased since immutability goes totally against my workflow and the workflows I make for other people.

        But, “unsuitable” =/= “not great”. So, this does not justify the (previous) usage of “unsuitable”. So, do you still stand behind the earlier use of “unsuitable”?

        Worse for = not meant for; not meant for = unsuitable imo because there are just better options; this leads to worse = unsuitable. Maybe not completely unsuitable but at least definitely not good for.

        Thank you for another clarification!

        You are welcome and thank you for not being toxic like at least approximately 2/3 of people on Lemmy (according to my not-so-accurate research).

        I just noticed that I read your “Nix” as “NixOS”. Which is blameworthy*. Uhmm…, so I have to ask for some (more) clarifications then 😜. Did you strictly mean Nix; i.e. the package manager and/or language? Or NixOS? According to you, does NixOS fall into Nix; i.e. simply the system that’s built on Nix?

        Ok listen idk much about Nix ecosystem/infrastructure. I meant NixOS here. Sorry for the confusion. The habit of not including the “OS” ending comes from the Android community.

        Fam. Chill. Please. I don’t intend to antagonize or whatsoever 😅. Like, the (overwhelming) majority of my previous comment were queries for clarifications and questioned related to how I initially understood them. There’s no need to make it more than that 😉.

        I’m sorry, mister/miss. My attitude to the society, people in general and Lemmy users is negative and suspicious by default. I have my reasons and, no matter how controversial it is, I’m not going to change it. Most of the people by far are bad and toxic so it’s ok to make this assumption the default. Again I’m sorry that this my assumption caused inconvenience for you.

        To clarify, from my understanding, it seems you regard/view ‘immutable distros’ at best as some niche. Which, to be fair, is absolutely fine.

        It may not be a small niche but everything has a niche (even X11, Wayland, GNOME and Windows 10) so immutable distros can have a big one or a small one. As you said, future will tell. I don’t see them getting a large (more than 10-20% desktop Linux users) niche any time soon.

        How do you reconcile this with the fact that other distros (more often than not) join Fedora into whatever direction they depart?

        I don’t think it’s the case or at least I don’t have any information on it. Fedora just tries making new and very perspective stuff the first and the stuff always succeeded in the past. In the case of immutable distros, I feel like it’s gonna be some nice to watch chaos because new users will have to understand how to disable immutability to install drivers and fixes which means much more research (because most answers will just say “disable immutability for the directories that the fix needs” and the user will have no idea of any of that) and terminal commands. At the same time, immutable systems may be less suitable for advanced users who like tinkering. This makes a huge part of the Linux user base. Then I can say “told you” with pride. Though immutable distros are great for cases when the system must be limited to a certain task(s). On the desktop it’s the enterprise usage but idk how many % they are. I think it’s in the single digits.

        Also we’re searching for the Lemmy’s comment length limit with these ones!!!

        • bsergay@discuss.onlineOP
          0·
          4 months ago

          My previous comment was perhaps too enthusiastic 😜 . I’d like to slim it down as follows:

          • First of all, thank you! It has been a lovely interaction so far. Your clarifications have been very helpful!
          • I’m still very much interested in how you think ‘immutable’ distros should be understood and used.
          • If I understood you correctly, you don’t regard NixOS as an ‘immutable’ distro (or at least not representative), would you be so kind to elaborate on this?
          • Some of your notions regarding ‘immutable’ distros don’t align with my own experiences; i.e. a user with over two years of experience with Fedora Atomic and who has played around with Nix. Especially the following parts:

          In the case of immutable distros, I feel like it’s gonna be some nice to watch chaos because new users will have to understand how to disable immutability to install drivers and fixes which means much more research (because most answers will just say “disable immutability for the directories that the fix needs” and the user will have no idea of any of that) and terminal commands.

          To be absolutely clear, these notions are (almost) alien to me. I’ve only come across these with new users that had fallen for the (infamous) XY problem. But that’s not even remotely representative. Hence, would I be correct to assume that your understanding of ‘immutable’ distros is relatively shallow? Which, to be absolutely fair, is totally fine.

          Though, the possibility exists that your understanding of “disable immutability” is correct, but this particular phrase happens to be misleading instead. Hence, could you perhaps elaborate on what you mean with “disable immutability”? Like, how does that look like on any ‘immutable’ distro you’re familiar with?

          Thank you in advance 😊!

          • GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml
            0·
            4 months ago

            I am sorry, mister/miss. Something weird happened to my Lemmy account and it was inaccessible for 2 days.

            I’m still very much interested in how you think ‘immutable’ distros should be understood and used.

            Immutable distros are good for cases when the machine is meant to be used for very specific tasks and applications while maintaining extreme stability and ease of updating. This includes OSes for ATMs, machinery control panels, enterprise office computers with very strict policies, educational computer class devices. I am not sure whether they are good for critical infrastructure such as aerospace industry and on-board computers so I can’t comment on that and it’s too early to do so anyways. Immutable systems can also be used for regular modern workspaces if stability (and possibly security) are preferred over absolutely everything else.

            If I understood you correctly, you don’t regard NixOS as an ‘immutable’ distro (or at least not representative), would you be so kind to elaborate on this?

            For me an “immutable distro” is defined more by its read-only (or R/W with write being disabled by default) root file system than by reproducibility or any other stuff. Afaik NixOS does not use any form of read-only FS so that’s why it is not an immutable distro to me.

            To be absolutely clear, these notions are (almost) alien to me. I’ve only come across these with new users that had fallen for the (infamous) XY problem. But that’s not even remotely representative. Hence, would I be correct to assume that your understanding of ‘immutable’ distros is relatively shallow? Which, to be absolutely fair, is totally fine.

            No matter how good your distro is, there always will be new users that need fixes or customizations that require extra steps and research on immutable (as in my definition) distros. This increases the chance of them giving up on Linux or creating angry/toxic posts on Linux related websites and communities.

            Hence, could you perhaps elaborate on what you mean with “disable immutability”.

            “Disable immutability” means “allow persistent changes for files and directories located in specific directories that are not in the /home directory/partition (“read-only” directories)”.

            • bsergay@discuss.onlineOP
              0·
              4 months ago

              Thank you. Thank you.

              I am sorry, mister/miss. Something weird happened to my Lemmy account and it was inaccessible for 2 days.

              No worries, fam 😉.

              Immutable distros are good for cases when the machine is meant to be used for very specific tasks and applications while maintaining extreme stability and ease of updating. This includes OSes for ATMs, machinery control panels, enterprise office computers with very strict policies, educational computer class devices. I am not sure whether they are good for critical infrastructure such as aerospace industry and on-board computers so I can’t comment on that and it’s too early to do so anyways.

              I think we very much agree on this. I am actually surprised 😜. Perhaps we (possibly) only ‘disagree’ on the following:

              Immutable systems can also be used for regular modern workspaces if stability (and possibly security) are preferred over absolutely everything else.

              I actually even agree with this. But, and here it comes, you limit the use of ‘immutable systems’ when it comes to regular workspaces to just a subset that complies with “if stability (and possibly security) are preferred over absolutely everything else”. However, I’d argue it will soon become the preferred model for most people; simply because I’d argue the net positives dramatically outweigh the (diminishing) net negatives. And this ‘clash’ in perspectives is literally a philosophical/ideological one. Which, I actually tried to allude to in my very first comment. Btw, neither of us is right or wrong; as mentioned earlier, only time will tell.

              For me an “immutable distro” is defined more by its read-only (or R/W with write being disabled by default) root file system than by reproducibility or any other stuff.

              Alright. So, you prefer to refer to ‘immutable’ distro in the literal sense.

              Regarding the status of the read-only (or disabled R/W) root file system, does this have to apply to the complete root file system; i.e. absolute? Or does it suffice if only a select subset of the system is read-only (or disabled R/W)? I wanted to ask this, but later on you made clear that a system does not have to be completely and absolutely immutable for it to be considered immutable; a couple of read-only directories suffices.

              Furthermore, is it required that an immutable system should remain immutable at all times for it to be considered an immutable system; i.e. changes are not allowed besides ‘hacks’? Or is it perhaps possible for a system to be deemed immutable if it only possesses immutability during runtime?

              Thanks in advance for yet another set of clarifications 😜!

              Afaik NixOS does not use any form of read-only FS so that’s why it is not an immutable distro to me.

              Teaser; the Nix Store, i.e. /nix/store, is immutable.

              “Disable immutability” means “allow persistent changes for files and directories located in specific directories that are not in the /home directory/partition (“read-only” directories)”.

              Very interesting. So, on Fedora Atomic, rpm-ostree install <package> would be considered “disable immutability”. Right? But, this does not apply to flatpak install <package>. Right?

              No matter how good your distro is, there always will be new users that need fixes or customizations that require extra steps and research on immutable (as in my definition) distros. This increases the chance of them giving up on Linux or creating angry/toxic posts on Linux related websites and communities.

              To be clear, new users will most likely experience some issues on Linux for the time being. I don’t think that ‘immutable’ distros are immune to that. Nor do I think they’re particularly more troublesome. If anything, they allow for more stable experiences overall; which you seem to allude to as well.

              • GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml
                0·
                4 months ago

                I actually even agree with this. But, and here it comes, you limit the use of ‘immutable systems’ when it comes to regular workspaces to just a subset that complies with “if stability (and possibly security) are preferred over absolutely everything else”. However, I’d argue it will soon become the preferred model for most people; simply because I’d argue the net positives dramatically outweigh the (diminishing) net negatives. And this ‘clash’ in perspectives is literally a philosophical/ideological one. Which, I actually tried to allude to in my very first comment. Btw, neither of us is right or wrong; as mentioned earlier, only time will tell.

                Idk if it changes anything but in that part of my comment the word “workspace” should’ve been replaced by “workstation”. I guess I chose a wrong word in autocorrect.

                Regarding the status of the read-only (or disabled R/W) root file system, does this have to apply to the complete root file system; i.e. absolute? Or does it suffice if only a select subset of the system is read-only (or disabled R/W)? I wanted to ask this, but later on you made clear that a system does not have to be completely and absolutely immutable for it to be considered immutable; a couple of read-only directories suffices.

                I think you have misunderstood my reply a lot. An immutable system is when everything (or almost everything) except for /home is read-only. Idk if my English was an issue there but it looks like you understood that part completely upside down.

                Very interesting. So, on Fedora Atomic, rpm-ostree install <package> would be considered “disable immutability”. Right?

                Probably. Idk anything about ostree. What I meant is that if you want to manually edit a file anywhere except for /home (or do any manual changes to the system like installing a GTK theme), you have to run a command (I forgot which one) to disable immutability for the directory it’s in (or only for the file; I don’t remember). For new users it can be a problem because it may be hard for them to find a good tutorial that covers all the steps, especially at the start of the “immutability boom” if it’s ever going to happen.

                If anything, they allow for more stable experiences overall; which you seem to allude to as well.

                As I just said, more stability means that issues are more stable and hard to solve as well.

                • bsergay@discuss.onlineOP
                  0·
                  4 months ago

                  Quick reply. Awesome!

                  Idk if it changes anything but in that part of my comment the word “workspace” should’ve been replaced by “workstation”. I guess I chose a wrong word in autocorrect.

                  Nope, it doesn’t. But thanks for clarifying!

                  An immutable system is when everything (or almost everything) except for /home is read-only.

                  Interesting. Here’s the thing; I am unaware of any so-called ‘immutable distro’ that fits this definition/description/notion/idea/understanding of an immutable system. So…, where do we go from here?

                  Idk if my English was an issue there but it looks like you understood that part completely upside down.

                  In retrospect, I think you actually did an okay-job at explaining your thoughts. But, yes; I did indeed misunderstand. Thanks for clarifying!

                  Probably. Idk anything about ostree.

                  In Fedora Atomic, most of /usr is immutable. IIRC, this is even the only directory (combined with the sub-directories found within) that are immutable. However, the command rpm-ostree install <package> allows the user to install packages into /usr. However, this change doesn’t happen during runtime. Instead, a new image/deployment is created with the newly installed package that you can access after a (soft-)reboot (or with --apply-live if you like to live on the edge).

                  Based on this, does this still apply as “disabling immutability”?

                  What I meant is that if you want to manually edit a file anywhere except for /home (or do any manual changes to the system like installing a GTK theme), you have to run a command (I forgot which one) to disable immutability for the directory it’s in (or only for the file; I don’t remember).

                  This seems to be based on your own experience. If so, would you be so kind to inform me on which distro this was?

                  For new users it can be a problem because it may be hard for them to find a good tutorial that covers all the steps, especially at the start of the “immutability boom” if it’s ever going to happen.

                  Currently, apart from the documentation provided by uBlue and Guix, there’s definitely a lack of good resources for ‘immutable’ distros. That’s simply a fact. But, thankfully, this is not a problem by design; we just need people that are willing to put in the effort.

                  As I just said, more stability means that issues are more stable and hard to solve as well.

                  Sorry, I’m having a hard time understanding this. Could you perhaps provide an example of this from e.g. Debian? It can be any distro that’s regarded as ‘stable’*.

                  Unless I’m wrong, you seem to have missed the following. It would be awesome if you could touch upon these as well:

                  Furthermore, is it required that an immutable system should remain immutable at all times for it to be considered an immutable system; i.e. changes are not allowed besides ‘hacks’? Or is it perhaps possible for a system to be deemed immutable if it only possesses immutability during runtime?

                  Thanks in advance 😊!

                  WOW, I just noticed something. You’ve been using the term “immutable system” for quite some time. And, I’ve primarily been using the term ‘immutable’ distro.

                  • GolfNovemberUniform@lemmy.ml
                    0·
                    4 months ago

                    Interesting. Here’s the thing; I am unaware of any so-called ‘immutable distro’ that fits this definition/description/notion/idea/understanding of an immutable system. So…, where do we go from here?

                    In Fedora Atomic, most of /usr is immutable.

                    This is enough to cause most of the issues.

                    Based on this, does this still apply as “disabling immutability”?

                    Not really because this is a pre-installed tool that doesn’t require any hassle to get working.

                    This seems to be based on your own experience. If so, would you be so kind to inform me on which distro this was?

                    It wasn’t my experience. I’ve never tried an immutable distro myself because it goes against my personal preferences and needs. I saw that on YouTube. I don’t remember what distro it was unfortunately but I’m almost sure it was Fedora based. Also in case you didn’t know, GTK themes are usually installed in /usr/share/themes so disabling immutable is required to do so even if /usr is the only thing that’s immutable.

                    we just need people that are willing to put in the effort.

                    Sure but this excuse won’t help new users and won’t stop them turning away from Linux.

                    Sorry, I’m having a hard time understanding this. Could you perhaps provide an example of this from e.g. Debian? It can be any distro that’s regarded as ‘stable’*.

                    I meant the disadvantages of immutable systems here, not stability in general.

                    Or is it perhaps possible for a system to be deemed immutable if it only possesses immutability during runtime?

                    I have no idea what a runtime is so I can’t answer this question.

                    WOW, I just noticed something. You’ve been using the term “immutable system” for quite some time. And, I’ve primarily been using the term ‘immutable’ distro.

                    I use the term “immutable system” because someone can create an immutable fork of BSD or even Windows can become immutable. It’s not just about Linux.