Like, why is it so widespread, what causes it, what solutions are available, etc. I don’t really know how to ask this question so I hope I’m making sense
If people are lonely it’s because they cause it themselves.
I’m in an activity group and it’s mostly the women of the group who are organizing the events. The men sign up to attend. The women are the ones who make plans and the men just go along.
Why don’t the men take initiative?
Even playing a board game, the guys just sit there playing a game. The women are the ones who introduce themselves, ask other people their names, what they do for a living, engage in conversation. This is all stuff men could be doing themselves but choose not to.
Some men isolate themselves using video games and didn’t join any social groups then complain that they are lonely. It’s like complaining you’re hungry when the food is right in front of you but you just won’t eat it – you’re expecting someone else to literally feed you.
A lot of men were never taught to do this. We raise young girls to be incredibly social, but boys are not socialized to nearly the same extent. You can see this in Autism diagnoses. Girls are diagnosed as a much lower rate and the ones that do receive the diagnosis tend to be really severe cases. The leading theory as to why is that society places so many social expectations on girls that the more mild cases quickly learn to mask and pass themselves off as neurotypical.
Hell, I’m 35 and I just started a group chat with some of my bros in order to help with motivation to get things done (it’s basically a stand up meeting but for our personal lives/goals). NONE of them even know each other, they were just doing this to help me out because I’m burned out. 2 weeks in and they had all thanked me privately for giving them a social outlet and improving their mood. None of us usually text people unless we need to, and now we’ll routinely get roped into conversations because someone shares an interesting update.
Meanwhile my wife is juggling 3 different group chats in addition to half a dozen friends she keeps in touch with 1-1.
There might be some biological mechanism too, but I think a lot of it boils down to boys have “productive labor” modelled for them as ideal behavior while girls are taught how to be considerate friends.
This makes it seem like men can’t learn. There’s nothing biological about organizing an event or talking to people.
We absolutely can, but it’s still a lot harder to pick these skills up as adults vs internalizing them as a kid, and a lot of men don’t even realize the cause of their suffering.
Like, I’m not trying to give men an excuse not to change-- you asked why men are bad at planning and I’m just giving you an answer.
We’re meant to be alone.
We aren’t though. That’s just something we’re told.
Humans are social animals
I need the most cynical take you have…
…nooooh, that’s too cynical.
Here’s a theory. I’m sure it has lots of holes in it.
Male loneliness has always been a thing. In cultures where it isn’t/wasn’t, there was a strong family relationship and older men modelling how to relate to others.
To hide from loneliness, men were able to join clubs, hang out at pubs, volunteer, or bury themselves in work.
In fact, those same pastimes are still available today.
What’s changed is that it is now socially OK to talk about loneliness (at least in online forums like this), so more people are aware it’s an issue.
In fact, those same pastimes are still available today.
That is glossing over a lot of context, a big one being that club membership is down (that’s a big point of Bowling Alone). I would not be surprised if many clubs relocated or shut down due to low membership, especially after raising membership fees. Or y’know that they were already a middleclass thing, thus canaries.
Pubs are also going to rely on prices, but the most social ones likely are accessible by free public transit or are located in a walkable/mixed-use area (particularly cities designed before+not-bulldozed-for cars).
I don’t think this is about awareness, especially when most people have less friends and less (or no) social engagement.
The entire country is designed to physically isolate people into shiti suburban houses.
Only solution is to quit being poor and live in specific major cities that didn’t get ruined by shiti car lobbies 🤡
I think you may have missed the point I was making though— clubs and other pastimes didn’t make people less lonely; they only distracted people from their loneliness. Today the same distractions can be found via social media, so instead of all those other activities, people just need a phone.
But the anonymizing nature of social media means people feel more free to discuss their loneliness when they do self-reflect.
I know Jordan Peterson has a lot of followers. He says it’s the women’s fault men are lonely. He says men are their victim, pictures women as evil while men should be on top. This creates an even bigger isolation and creates sex offenders.
In Japan and South Korea there are many men who are isolated because of videogames and it’s online culture. They have a relationship with a Nintendo character of AI on their phone (no joke).
Because a lot of lonely men are on the internet, it’s not a correct representation of the real world. Doesn’t change the fact there are many non the less.
Just because there are many different cultures accessable for anyone through the internet, it’s easier to isolate yourself in such a culture. Whether it’s on reddit, 4chan, through games, forums or other social media groups. But it keeps you off the streets, away from real socializing, learning to behave, how to talk to a girl, find a hobby which isn’t on your computer, meet real friends.
I know Jordan Peterson has a lot of followers. He says it’s the women’s fault men are lonely
Peterson has a habit of saying things that might technically be true in isolation but will then disagree with you when you try and make a conclusion from it. In this case he has also said it’s men’s fault for not making women a good enough ‘offer’.
He’s a racist, misogynist, narcicist, piece of shit who sexually objectified his own daughter (if not more than that)
piece of shit who sexually objectified his own daughter (if not more than that)
Was aware of the rest but not this, what is this referring to?
Comments he made about her and putting a photo of her being of questionable age in a bikini on the cover of one of his works.
See Bowling Alone.
Personally (and from a US shut-in perspective!) I’d take it further: the social contract is broken. When society has been molded to almost exclusively generate money, the closest to winning there is when you’re broke is trying to spend the least amount of money possible which surely will be solitaire confinement.
I don’t think there’s any easy fix, moving to a better area is an individual thing yet is also the core issue when it comes to transportation+rent+cost-of-living.
When you have a significant change in the population dynamic, it takes a significant time for the population not (really) effecting this change to adjust.
From my perspective as an old bloke, Women now treat relationships as transactional, men haven’t kept pace. There are obviously a number of reasons and I’m not making that statement to judge or analyse; mass change requires motivation. The motivation presented itself. Society is in the same incredible flux as when the pill became a real and common thing fifty years ago.
The risks for a man of a relationship significantly outweigh the rewards. Being aware of the overwhelming risks and deciding not to engage doesn’t stop one being lonely.
“I used to think the worst thing in life was to end up all alone. It’s not. The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel alone.” - Robin Williams
Could you please elaborate on what you mean by risk and why is it worse for men?
The juice ain’t worth the squeeze.
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https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/risk I’m assuming you’re not familiar with the word and English is not your first language.
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- 80 - 90% of women win custody battles, despite prisons being almost entirely of fatherless homes. Homes where the father is the single parent have the same recidivism rate as two parent homes.
- False accusations of violence are free or fully funded for women. In the England/Wales when legal aid introduced the requirement of domestic violence before legal aid was granted, on the quarter of this rule coming in (2011) applications under domestic abuse were multiplied by 10 times. Either men collectively decided to start beating their wives in that quarter or fully funded false accusations were exposed as an issue.
- About 20-30% of children are not related to their father as named on their birth certificate. Statistics from the child maintenance body in the UK shows that for the thousands of men placed on child maintenance applications over a third were shown to be false applications citing unrelated men. Google for other numbers. In France, it is illegal it seek the DNA child - father match for your own children.
- In the UK the 1971 law (MCA) says effectively that joint marital assets follow the children. The woman typically gets around 80%+ of net assets because they have custody of the children. that’s a personal observation because these are private law cases. The government refuses to publish the real numbers.
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(I’m tired of typing now) Domestic violence against men is ignored; or the victim is arrested. There are no shelters for men and children in the whole of the UK. Erin pissey, a lovely woman, who came up with the idea for shelters for DV survivors for both sexes was removed from the organisation she started by feminists and now campaigns for DV shelters for men. All of these government money for supporting male victims of DV is given to 'Women’s Aid" after their successful bid years ago. There is still no support for male victims; it doesn’t take a genius to imagine why.
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Someone else is going to have to finish these.
Thanks for typing these out! I asked more because I wanted to know where exactly you were coming from, not strictly because I didn’t have the language skills. Then again, i think it is very much worth it to have the information on these shared more widely
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Toxic masculinity makes men feel like they need to be strong independent and suffer silently.
As for the other side of the coin, i would guess the Women Are Wonderful Effect.
What’s the deal with poorly explained questions?
Why don’t they provide more context for their perspective? Do they think people will magically know what they mean without them explaining it?
I think that’s part of the fun of an “ask people” forum, the answers reveal the common understanding of the definition of the question itself!
For example, In this question the term “male loneliness” is seemingly semantically meaningful. It seems to be a name given to the popular perception or understanding of a certain phenomenon.
Part of the fun of a forum is interacting with people as well, which OP didn’t do. Just shit in the forum and fucked off.
One thing that helps loneliness is communities, especially those that meet IRL. I believe there has been a significant decline in club membership and social groups in the past decades. I think there are several factors behind this, including financial stress (and the resulting scarcity of free time).
One action that people can take is to join communities and participate in them! Even just online groups with similar interests if not IRL groups can help to make friends and feel connected. HTH
I think that many of the approaches that tried to explain it are mostly dangerous.
Like blaming it on gender norms, and toxic masculinity, the most common answer. Because plenty of men who do not comply to gender norms or toxic masculinity (or masculinity at all) still feel alone. And their experience get invalidated by this explanation.
I think a more neutral approach is needed to explain it. Instead of trying to take some explanation that fits your political views and then try to push it as a solution to the problem, the problem should be investigated by itself, and once an explanation is reached accept it even if it does not fit your political mindset.
One hint is that most people that feel alone lack a romatic relationship, the most common approach seems to be that “nah romatic relationships are not needed and we will not even consider them part of the problem”. When it’s pretty obviously that the lack of this kind of relationships is fundamental in male loneliness.
Because plenty of men who do not comply to gender norms or toxic masculinity (or masculinity at all) still feel alone. And their experience get invalidated by this explanation.
It sounds like you completely miss the application of the explanation itself. The phrase toxic masculinity describes the social norms and expectations that men act a certain way. Society imposes gender norms on people such that those who don’t comply are at the highest risk of being shunned or ostracized, and having trouble making social connections. And the social pressure may make men act in ways they wouldn’t otherwise, so that they grow up poorly equipped to be introspective and understand their own wants/desires/emotions/drives/motivations.
Toxic masculinity tells men what they’re not allowed to be, and tells men what they must be. Both sides of that same coin are toxic to men, and by extension those that the men interact with.
Feels more like an explanation looking for a question that otherwise. Explanation doesn’t seems to emerge from the problem, but from the solution.
Again not talking about the main issue that every men that feel alone will tell you as the root of their problem:
-Lack of a relationship.
-Lack of friendships due other friends being invested in their relationships.
I haven’t meet a man that accused male loneliness because “others expect me to act manly” or because “I don’t know what I want because toxic masculinity”. Toxic masculinity may cause anxiety, discomfort or things like that in not complying men, but I don’t see it causing lack of romantic relationships. The cause of the former must be other.
The whole “men are wrong for wanting to be loved and they should be happy being alone” feels a little too much invalidating on people’s wants and desires.
While sexism and male toxicity is bad I don’t see how ending that would improve in anything male loneliness as it’s solution does not address what’s making many males feel lonely.
Again not talking about the main issue that every men that feel alone will tell you as the root of their problem:
-Lack of a relationship.
-Lack of friendships due other friends being invested in their relationships.
Actually, your comment touches on something that is really interesting to me, and a major part of where you and I differ on what male loneliness means. You’ve elevated the romantic committed relationship with a woman as the primary means by which men are expected to derive social standing and stability, but I view it primarily as an issue of friendships, mainly friendships with other men. The loneliness problem, in my view, comes from men being unable to form strong relationships with other men, and a wife or girlfriend or whatever is secondary to that.
Maybe it’s because I’ve always had stability in my friendships but didn’t have committed romantic relationships until my 30’s, but it seems like the problem of loneliness comes from not feeling like you have people in your corner (friends, family, even work colleagues), but I think focusing on sexual and romantic relationships is itself isolating and lonely, even for men who do get married. Now that I’m married I still spend plenty of time with my friends, married or single, based on the topic/activity/interest that ties us together.
Toxic masculinity is definitely not a part of relationships falling apart.
Anyone who had live through being in a group of single people through their youth and, as years pass, became the only one single on that group could probably confirm the experience. Friendships do not fall apart just because some male toxicity. It’s way simpler, it’s just that when two people do not have partners they can devote a lot of time and emotional energy to each other. When you are single a friend can easily be the most important person of your life. When you have a partner the amount of time and emotional energy that you have for friends is inferior, as you want to spend a great deal of that time and energy to your partner (as it’s natural). Then relationships became different. It’s not that it’s impossible to have “married friends”. But it’s certainly not the same as having a close single friend. And toxic masculinity does not take a part in any part of this process. The process is just a natural thing to happen on these situations.
Yes, people can cope trying to make new friendships. But that’s just a way to cope. Same as filing your live with hobbies and social activities can help coping with the lack of a romantic partner. But it does not solve the base issue. It’s like taking antidepressants for a depression, it helps, but it’s no solution, and the lack of antidepressants was not the issue.
Having a romantic relationship is important for many people. Denying that can be alienating, as you are denying personal experiences and personal feelings. I don’t think that solution is convincing people that their natural desires of being as loved as they see other people to be is just wrong and that they should live with even wanting that love (while they see plenty of other people enjoying that kind love).
That’s what I’m talking about, though. You see male friendships as a method of coping with a more fundamental problem relating to women, and I totally disagree, and argue that healthy male friendships are social connections worth developing and maintaining in their own right, whether you are or aren’t in a committed relationship with a woman. Even your framing of why male friendships fall apart involves women. It’s the centrality of women in your worldview that is preventing you from seeing how male friendships are a critical thing to have in addressing male loneliness.
Put another way, married men need healthy male friendships, too. Putting all of that emotional labor into a single link with a woman is fragile and unreliable, and I’d argue inherently unhealthy. People need multiple social links and the resilience and support that comes from whole groups connected in a web, not just a bunch of isolated pairings.
And to be clear, I’m not saying that friendships are a replacement for romantic and sexual relationships. I’m saying that social fluency, empathy, and thoughtfulness necessary for being able to maintain deep friendships are important skillsets for maintaining romantic relationships as well. The lack of romantic partners, then, isn’t the “base issue,” but is a symptom of the internal state of the person and how that person interacts with the world.
So I maintain that your worldview switches cause and effect, at least compared to mine. And maybe I’m wrong, and I’m not trying to convince you that I’m right. I’m bringing all this up to share that the surprising part of this line of comments is that I was genuinely not expecting someone to treat romantic difficulties as a primary or fundamental cause of male loneliness. To show you that at least there are other people who view these issues very differently from you, and that there’s a broad diversity of thought on the topic.
Fun fact. At no point in my comments you’ll see that I referred to “male friends” or “female friends”.
Plenty of men had female friends that got away because they fell in love with some other man/woman. And I don’t think toxic masculinity would have any impact in a friendship between a woman and a non-toxic man. And those relationships also break apart anyway.
It makes no difference the gender of the friends in my theory. And if course I don’t think that woman (or men) are, as a gender, the cause of male loneliness, or that women are to blame for anything, much less for also wanting to have a romantic relationship.
The only gendered part of the issue, and the reason on why we call it “male loneliness” is that women seems to have an easier time achieving romantic relationships when they want to. While men tend to have a much harder time and their loneliness tends to be involuntary more often than not. (Again not that women, as a gender, is to blame for this situation).
The thing is that you can be the best friend in the world, a partner will always come first for the other person. It’s not a matter of lack of empathy or any other"toxic male behavior" here. It’s just people having different priorities in life. And a problem with some people being no one’s priority. And I don’t think there’s nothing wrong with feeling bad about not being anyone number one priority in life, it’s just a plain sad fact that’s normal to make people sad about it.
I’m not convinced that my theory is true. As this is an incredibly complex topic. I just think that the whole “male toxicity is to blame” is just an easy scape goat or political dogma. “Toxic masculinity and sexism is bad so it must be the cause of every gendered issue in society”, and then constructing the argument needed for that statement to maintain true. And while sexism it’s obviously bad, it does not need to be the source of any and all problems. Some problems, I think, have other sources.
I think it’s because people are overworked. No time for love, no time for friendship, sometimes not even enough time to take care of yourself properly.
Patriarchy harms and isolates men first so that they become the monsters that women fear.
The same way women are expected to look and act a certain way, so is for men, with different criteria.
Not by people per se, but by a sort of cultural subconscious, like a chaos creature from warhammer it exists because people believe in it, not necessarily because they agree with it. Everyone fears it, so most comply.
That’s why it is so important to destroy the social gender binary, the idea that we all neatly fit in well defined labels that apply to our body and mind. It’s just complete bullshit and internalizing it is one of the many ways this system traps us in its oppression
Never don’t downvote posts with the word “patriarchy” in them. The right says “DEI hire” the left says “Patriarchy.”
Except if you did just the slightest bit of research you’d know patriarchy is an anthropological and well defined phenomenon not based on prejudice but on research of oppression throughout millennia, while the other is just an excuse to be intolerant.
This kind of false equivalences really show people’s disinterest in going deeper with their judgment. There’s nothing comparable about the two other than widespread use
Absolutely agree.
One of the ways we’ve gone wrong so far is that people do need some guidance at least on what is possible and acceptable.
Just saying to young people “Be whatever you want to be” is unhelpful and confusing.
Role models of all kinds and representation matter so people who are figuring these things out as they grow have inspiration, ideas, can see who they are reflected in the world around them so they can put a name to the feeling.
If we can do that without shaming, blaming or excluding then people can find their way without the need of gender binary.
Caveat, not everyone is a suitable role model. Some people are warnings, not examples.
There was a meme the other day about how Aragorn from lotr is the kind of male role model men need. Kind, shows his emotions, strong without being cruel.
Male loneliness is likely partially due to the same reason we are all here; this online outlet for social endorphins is why you were not building up a deficit over the last week and felt the motivation to finally call that person you were thinking about this whole time. That person was a passing thought, and the endorphins hit you might have received is ultimately less than you got from the austere but consistent dose you get from social engagement online.
The only problem is that you are not creating a meaningful personal social network in real life. When you really need such a network in practice, you face the reality of no one to turn to, or less depth and meaning to such connections. Real people are also complex and you must face the reality that no one fits your echo chamber bubble like a place like this. If you act like a down vote or stupid hot take comes across here to people in the real world… you find yourself back here with less options in the future.
People online can be fun and can’t hurt you
Ah, I guess I’ll need to tell my teenage friend who never made it to adulthood after feeling trapped and ruined when an older man started an online relationship that isolated her from her family to… fucking grow a pair or something?
Healthy mature people can exist online in a positive manner. Not everyone is an adult and not every adult is mature. The internet can be a dangerous place and it’s unhelpful to try and dismiss that.
Valid. Fair point.
Don’t get disabled and have a place like this as your only outlet to connect with other humans. Anonymous and mob like negativity, especially from misunderstandings, can be hurtful when sharing some part of yourself or the only time you’ve said anything to anyone in a day or more from within a prison of loneliness you cannot escape.
This is so true. We are living in the novel “Brave New World”
Male loneliness is as much a symptom of the “suck it up” toxic masculinity that pervades your comment as it is the content of your comment.
Men are taught to be stoic, to rely only on themselves, to suck it up and get on with it, and for some, they’re trying desperately to conform to something that seems frighteningly easy for others. They’re expending all their energy on that unnatural - for them - attempt to conform rather than being able to simply exist as they might otherwise be.
Your instinct might be to attack me for pointing this out. That’s toxicity at play. Look at yourself.
But I haven’t made my main point yet. It’s this same toxicity and trying to “be a man” that turns men into the monsters that women fear, and so it becomes a vicious cycle of negativity breeding loneliness and on and on.
My advice would be “Do better. And if you can’t do better, do your best. And whatever you do, minimise harm.”
I choose to abstract and never attack anyone, while you insult, and make assumptions about my disposition going as far as assigning them an ideology and framework that seems repugnant and baseless to me. I see and feel lots of projection and bias, but if causing a disabled person in social isolation harm hames you feel better, I’m glad you had a better day. The comments seem so randomly unrelated it feels like you are possibly a misinformation agent of some sort.
Yeah I agree that response was uncalled-for.
Toxic gender norms hurt everyone.
I think this is exacerbated by certain people online who want to capitalize on the issue and scapegoat others (see the manosphere and how they talk about feminism) instead of actually addressing the problem
Could not agree more feminism is just human rights by another name and human rights is not achieved by anyone till every gender , race , sexual orientation, religion or lack of, ability or disability are equal.
You dont have to agree even. That’s just the definition of feminism.
That word is egalitarianism.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/egalitarianism
Feminism is egalitarianism just as Black Lives Matter is egalitarianism.
Both recognize disparities for a specific marginalized group, and work to establish egalitarianism.
What exactly are you talking about? Men who feel lonely sometimes? Men without friends? Men who are not having sex?
Men without hats?
