The real beef was with stay home single party folks who would otherwise be Dem voters.
3rd party “voices” were annoying because they only punched at Dems, never at republicans. Interestingly, a few of them migrated to libertarian and conservative instances now
I’m specifically referring to otherwise active voters, who are historically punchcard democrats. There are many other types of voters, but I specifically grouped a sample that is my discussion.
Don’t blame the people staying home. Blame the Democrats for doing nothing to earn those votes but say “Orange Man Bad”. They did the exact same thing in 2016. Democrats ran on maintaining the status quo at a time when no one is happy with the status quo.
The Harris campaign should have campaigned on issues that would attract progressives and others on the left. Instead they tried to get conservatives to leave their cult by touting the endorsement of Dick fucking Cheney and his incredibly unpopular daughter and saying they’ll close the borders and continue funding Netanyahu’s genocide. It’s like Harris didn’t want to win.
If Democrats want to win they need to stop being Republicans.
Edit but in the spirit of conversation: Biden AND Harris are lame candidates that absolutely only maintain the status quo. As you say, voters are unhappy with that.
Edit restructure
I disagree with the conclusion that OMB isn’t valid reasoning. But it’s just one dudes opinion that I’ve laid out in the thread.
Orange man bad was more then enough to pick a rock with a smiley face on it as alternative
People will learn the consequences, regardless of what brought them in our kept them home.
If folks fundamentally can’t play out the math on 2 choices in a FPTP where one is a serial rapist, anti abortion candidate, who is on record for wanting to accelerate Gaza, then I dunno what to say on that. “Status quo” starts looking pretty shiny, which is terrible, but the world we live in.
But now we have trump, and a lot of folks get to say “they didn’t attract me”
Orange man bad was more then enough to pick a rock with a smiley face on it as alternative
It’s a logical argument and it’s a correct argument. Unfortunately it’s demonstrably not an effective argument, especially when it’s all you’re doing. The same thing happened in 2016 with Clinton thinking she was owed votes because Trump would be (and was, and will be again) a disaster for the US. Yet they still went with the same strategy anyway.
I say this as someone who did make the “correct” choice of voting blue despite my moral objections to a lot of what she was saying. We will now all see the consequences of only barely trying to win an election against fascists.
I can see how you’d arrive at that conclusion (mostly by ignoring everything else I said), but my point was really that Harris needed a better argument than just that. She never gave people a reason to vote for her rather than just against Trump. That caused 14 million people who previously voted Democrat to stay home.
To a lot of apathetic people we were presented with 2 very similar choices neither of whom gives a shit about the working class. So a lot of people figured “why bother?” and I don’t blame them for that. I blame Democrats for abandoning the working class and catering to corporate donors and conservatives. That’s not even mentioning doing nothing to stem the flow of genocide supplies to Israel (which caused a lot of Muslim voters to stay home).
So sure, you can blame voters, but it makes more sense to blame the campaign that wasn’t even trying to win.
To be clear, I have no love for the dnc or their strategies. I am not championing them as a model. Other commenters seem to think I’m simping for “blue maga” or some other shit.
I’ve consistently argued for harm reduction in a limited outcome system.
I agree with the harm reduction strategy, but I also understand people being apathetic with the choices they’re presented.
Of course this means people should be more active and now is the time to start really pushing for ranked choice voting so we can maybe do something about the dominance of the two-party system.
Screw trying to convince Democrats they need to start looking left. Force them to with the threat of new, actually progressive, parties.
Bro you do words real good. Your closing statement is gold.
Imo that work to build candidates start right now, and to circle back my issue with third party voices, they are crickets until right before he election
Just because someone voted Democrat before doesn’t mean they would necessarily do so this year if it hadn’t been for that pesky genocide they are doing.
By us I mean leftists, party voters, and people who did not vote
No, I haven’t discussed 3rd parties at all in my comment. I said 3rd party “voices”, reading comprehension meaning “commenters/online personalities” because I noted their movement to new instances.
My “toxicity” are legitimate concerns to not get trump, who will ramp everything up. Well look who’s here now.
As I said, single issue stay homes, and “alternative” voices that actually only served to strike at Dems are issues I believe shifted the narrative and may have influenced the election.
I made a thread to discuss other influences beyond just punching down at 3rd party platforms.
Yes we heard you the first 3 times. Its the voters fault. The Democrats are merely victims, completely maladroit at managing their own fate.
You aren’t making different any new points or clarification, just repeating the same, tired tropes that just handed the US democracy over to fascism. And we get it, you are incapable of expanding your understanding beyond the initial assumptions you made. No need to repeat yourself any longer.
Honestly dude I commented with the intent of discussing the issue but you’re just slinging mud.
It’s not toxicity to make an observation on forces that drove voters to not vote for harris. I didn’t say Harris was a queen and how dare they. I didn’t say the Dems ran a good campaign or a good primary or something.
It’s not that 3rd parties exist, or have different ideas than Dems.
If I MUST discuss them I would say the only actual criticism I have (omg toxicity warning) is that they only crop up, and only vocalize in popular spaces right around general elections. They need to build their platform and messaging NOW and for the next several years with the intensity and visibility they do in August-november of a general election year. Their mission and goals would be more effectively achieved
The real beef was with stay home single party folks who would otherwise be Dem voters.
3rd party “voices” were annoying because they only punched at Dems, never at republicans. Interestingly, a few of them migrated to libertarian and conservative instances now
Turnout in 2024 was about the same as 2020. It wasn’t Democrats staying home. Trump simply swayed more voters.
I’m specifically referring to otherwise active voters, who are historically punchcard democrats. There are many other types of voters, but I specifically grouped a sample that is my discussion.
What’s your evidence that Democrats “stayed home abnormally this election”?
Don’t blame the people staying home. Blame the Democrats for doing nothing to earn those votes but say “Orange Man Bad”. They did the exact same thing in 2016. Democrats ran on maintaining the status quo at a time when no one is happy with the status quo.
The Harris campaign should have campaigned on issues that would attract progressives and others on the left. Instead they tried to get conservatives to leave their cult by touting the endorsement of Dick fucking Cheney and his incredibly unpopular daughter and saying they’ll close the borders and continue funding Netanyahu’s genocide. It’s like Harris didn’t want to win.
If Democrats want to win they need to stop being Republicans.
Edit but in the spirit of conversation: Biden AND Harris are lame candidates that absolutely only maintain the status quo. As you say, voters are unhappy with that.
Edit restructure
I disagree with the conclusion that OMB isn’t valid reasoning. But it’s just one dudes opinion that I’ve laid out in the thread.
Orange man bad was more then enough to pick a rock with a smiley face on it as alternative
People will learn the consequences, regardless of what brought them in our kept them home.
If folks fundamentally can’t play out the math on 2 choices in a FPTP where one is a serial rapist, anti abortion candidate, who is on record for wanting to accelerate Gaza, then I dunno what to say on that. “Status quo” starts looking pretty shiny, which is terrible, but the world we live in.
But now we have trump, and a lot of folks get to say “they didn’t attract me”
You’re working from a flawed premise. Turnout for this election was high, even among Democrats. Not as high as 2020, but very high.
Not as high as 2020. The nearest election. With trump in it.
It’s a logical argument and it’s a correct argument. Unfortunately it’s demonstrably not an effective argument, especially when it’s all you’re doing. The same thing happened in 2016 with Clinton thinking she was owed votes because Trump would be (and was, and will be again) a disaster for the US. Yet they still went with the same strategy anyway.
I say this as someone who did make the “correct” choice of voting blue despite my moral objections to a lot of what she was saying. We will now all see the consequences of only barely trying to win an election against fascists.
The logical summation I derive from this statement is: Blame the voters, as they committed a stupid and illogical act.
The only reasonable explanation for 2016 is that most people assumed Trump had no chance. There is no reasonable explanation for 2024.
I can see how you’d arrive at that conclusion (mostly by ignoring everything else I said), but my point was really that Harris needed a better argument than just that. She never gave people a reason to vote for her rather than just against Trump. That caused 14 million people who previously voted Democrat to stay home.
To a lot of apathetic people we were presented with 2 very similar choices neither of whom gives a shit about the working class. So a lot of people figured “why bother?” and I don’t blame them for that. I blame Democrats for abandoning the working class and catering to corporate donors and conservatives. That’s not even mentioning doing nothing to stem the flow of genocide supplies to Israel (which caused a lot of Muslim voters to stay home).
So sure, you can blame voters, but it makes more sense to blame the campaign that wasn’t even trying to win.
I am aligned with you here. Well put.
To be clear, I have no love for the dnc or their strategies. I am not championing them as a model. Other commenters seem to think I’m simping for “blue maga” or some other shit.
I’ve consistently argued for harm reduction in a limited outcome system.
I agree with the harm reduction strategy, but I also understand people being apathetic with the choices they’re presented.
Of course this means people should be more active and now is the time to start really pushing for ranked choice voting so we can maybe do something about the dominance of the two-party system.
Screw trying to convince Democrats they need to start looking left. Force them to with the threat of new, actually progressive, parties.
Bro you do words real good. Your closing statement is gold.
Imo that work to build candidates start right now, and to circle back my issue with third party voices, they are crickets until right before he election
None of us would “otherwise be dem voters”. What part of “I’m not voting for you because I don’t support your policies” did you not understand?
Many “normally / historically” Dem voters stayed home. That’s the group I’m referring to by “single issue” section.
I don’t know who you “us” are so why would I speak for you?
Because you’ve been so civil in your reply, I’ll throw an edit on there just for you.
Just because someone voted Democrat before doesn’t mean they would necessarily do so this year if it hadn’t been for that pesky genocide they are doing.
By us I mean leftists, party voters, and people who did not vote
That’s fine, I clarified I’m not discussing leftists.
Registered party voters represent millions and millions of voters. That type of “historical” voter is not an anomaly.
This is all just the same toxic projection that I’ve been pointing out in this thread.
You want to blame third parties but there is basically 0, practically negative evidence for it.
No, I haven’t discussed 3rd parties at all in my comment. I said 3rd party “voices”, reading comprehension meaning “commenters/online personalities” because I noted their movement to new instances.
Splendid discussion as usual dingdong. Twist then pull up
What do you expect when you just keep putting the same performative toxicity on display?
So much assuming.
My “toxicity” are legitimate concerns to not get trump, who will ramp everything up. Well look who’s here now.
As I said, single issue stay homes, and “alternative” voices that actually only served to strike at Dems are issues I believe shifted the narrative and may have influenced the election.
I made a thread to discuss other influences beyond just punching down at 3rd party platforms.
Yes we heard you the first 3 times. Its the voters fault. The Democrats are merely victims, completely maladroit at managing their own fate.
You aren’t making different any new points or clarification, just repeating the same, tired tropes that just handed the US democracy over to fascism. And we get it, you are incapable of expanding your understanding beyond the initial assumptions you made. No need to repeat yourself any longer.
Honestly dude I commented with the intent of discussing the issue but you’re just slinging mud.
It’s not toxicity to make an observation on forces that drove voters to not vote for harris. I didn’t say Harris was a queen and how dare they. I didn’t say the Dems ran a good campaign or a good primary or something.
It’s not that 3rd parties exist, or have different ideas than Dems.
If I MUST discuss them I would say the only actual criticism I have (omg toxicity warning) is that they only crop up, and only vocalize in popular spaces right around general elections. They need to build their platform and messaging NOW and for the next several years with the intensity and visibility they do in August-november of a general election year. Their mission and goals would be more effectively achieved