And what would happen if we did?
In theory - sure. In practice - all countries in the world have to agree to raise taxes, even though individually they are better off betraying this agreement and lowering them, thereby attracting the rich and ending up with more, not less, money.
And if all countries agree to tax the rich the way they should, we might as well go and build socialism everywhere, because not having everyone onboard is a main issue there too.
Why are you arguing against reality? In the world today, some states and countries tax the rich at higher or lower rates than other states and countries, and it’s certainly not true that the rich all leave the high tax rate places. The data doesn’t lie. You can argue about why they don’t all leave, but the facts are there for you to see.
You don’t need uniformity around the United States or the world in order to tax the rich effectively. But people like to say what you said, so that you don’t even try to tax them.
But I think it would be fun to run an experiment. Why don’t we jack up taxes on the ultra-rich across the United States. If the ultra rich move to Venezuela, then all of the savings they have in the US stock market will be taxed at an even higher rate and we will actually get more money from them. And if they were working any cushy CEO jobs, those jobs will now be open for other American citizens, and I’m sure there were plenty of people willing to apply… Of course it doesn’t have to be the US. Pick any country, try the same experiment, and get back to us.
Yes, because at the same time they offer a better business environment. US, for example, can do pretty much anything, being de facto commercial center of the world, with highest scale operations historically based there and interconnected to the point they can’t just “leave”.
Should you run this “experiment” in aforementioned Venezuela instead, you’re unlikely to enjoy the result. Although it wouldn’t benefit the US in the long run either.
they would threaten to move all operations to somewhere like the Cayman Islands which makes no fucking sense
They can threaten all they want, it’s simply not possible. If it actually was possible, they’d have done that a long time ago.
Like it or not they have assets here. If they move their operations overseas and evade taxes they can enjoy having their assets seized and their IP confiscated.
The rich don’t earn money from an income. They earn it from investments. We tax investments at the same rate as the top bracket (37%). If we raised the top income bracket to 38%, it would push more rich to receive their income via investment. However, raise the investment tax (capital gains), and we drive foreign investment away. A lot of foreign money is in America because we have a long history of stability and a low possibility of the people rising up and nationalizing ownership of foreign property. Drive that money away and everyone suffers, but that also makes it impossible to raise taxes on the rich.
I should of said “makes it impossible to raise taxes on the rich” … without them passing on the hurt to the poor. Sort of like how Trump thinks a tariff on foreign goods will only be paid by foreigners.
I say we tax them 9x19 times.
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Yes.
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They would fight back, buy all our media sources, and buy our governments to make sure 1 didn’t happen.
Sounds familiar… oh wait…
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Every country would have to do it. A party here in Switzerland wanted to drastically increase inheritance tax for certain large inheritances, and the rich people threatened so hard to leave the country that everyone believed them and now nobody supports it anymore. (They said their children would not be able to pay the tax because most of their wealth is supposedly in company shares, so if they died their children would have to sell off the companies to Cineese companies which nobody in Switzerland liked to hear)
Why not pay in shares?
Yeah, then the corporations would gradually become public too, which would be beneficial.
Of course that’s not true. We have data from around the world showing it’s not true. It’s not even true within the United States if you look at state taxes.
Yes.
They write the tax laws and buy the politicians to pass those tax laws. So no, we cannot tax the rich.
The newly elected government is actually quite cost efficient in this regard. Since they already are all crooked business men, they don’t need to pay anyone to get those tax laws passed.
It’s probably not possible at this point. If there was some kind of revolution, poor people could have access to healthcare, education, shelter, and food. You know, basic dignity and hope for a better future. But the problem is that hopeless wage slaves are better for capitalism.
Theoretically, sure. Pragmatically, we just elected a fascist insurrectionist, and it’s not going to happen in the near future.
We?
Yeah, that’s fair. US mindset, I’m just still processing our shitshow.
Has that been tried since 1790 when the french decided to behead all the rich people?
Certainly. Most of the 20th century, the top tier tax rate was set at a level that can only be described as “punitive”. It was higher than 90% to kill off the robber barons.
While I am not morally opposed to beheading rich people, we really need to go back to the tax rates we had in the 50’s. And add a securities tax, payable in shares of that security, that the IRS can liquidate slowly over time.
most effective tax reform
Yeah they only wanted the top 10% of the top 10%
No. If someone’s rich they can lobby if they can lobby they will act within theyre best interest.
I like Bernie’s idea of taxing every trade on the stock market.
Even a 1 or 2% per trade would bring massive amounts of money, not even trying to make it progressive or anything.
Not even that; 0.1% per trade would bring in a huge windfall. Even something negligible like 0.01% would bring in nontrivial amounts of revenue.
The problem is that being above paying tax has become part of the identity of being rich, and the very idea of even a negligible amount of one’s wealth being taken away to be given to your inferiors is unacceptable, and the rich will defend every fluctuating cent of their wealth as a non-negotiable matter of honour, even if it means burning down the world.
Years ago they tried to pass a minimum amount of time you had to hold a stock before selling…
It was a fraction of a second and neoliberals and Republicans immediately united to tell everyone how antithetical to America that was.
For some reason, that wasn’t enough to show people that both groups have the same priorities and we can’t fight an oligarchy with fucking oligarchs.
We’ll never win if only a handful of politicians are actually on our side.
But it’s almost impossible to compete against dark money in a primary, and the people running the DNC know that. So they’ll never agree to get dark money out of primaries. It’s the only reason they’re still holding back progressives.
Why that would be huge:
It would incentize the rich to hold stocks long term, this would lead to corporations thinking more than what profits are in 3 months.
Which translates to greater stability for other investors and job security for the people who work there.
But it’s never going to happen as long as
SmaugPelosi and people like her who’s main priority is personal wealth is running the Dem party. Because we all know Republicans will never support it.But if we don’t purge the Dem party of neo liberals, and fast, we’re all fucked. We can’t keep walking down the path of “the rich always get richer” like nothing is wrong.
Wealth is finite. And without taxes and regulations the people who already have a lot will always accumulate more faster than they can spend it.
With them hoarding all that wealth, no one else has any.
Meanwhile down on earth, you’ve just caused an entirely new class of derrivatives traded on sketchy and unregulated markets, increasing the risk of fraud to all, including small individual investors.
Wealth is finite
The size of the observable universe is ~93 billion light-years. So, you’re technically right, but…
I don’t understand what you’re trying to say, but I’m not expecting you clarifying to help
Well, a lot of stock trading isn’t as simple as just stock picking, buying and selling individual stocks.
Much of the market is made up of derivatives trading, such as options, where you aren’t trading the stock itself, instead you are trading the option to buy the stock.
The value of the option is derived from the value of the underlying asset, but it is not absolutely coupled to it (this is how a lot of the money is made, by finding market inefficiencies and capitalizing on things like slippage, where there is a mismatch in the value of the derivative and it’s underlying)
What the person above is saying is that, when it becomes no longer profitable to trade underlying assets directly, new derivative markets will be invented that trade around other underlying assets.
Think about unregulated Bitcoin trading for example, while contrived, imagine a crypto currency that is coupled with the price of another asset (these exist, like USDcoin) such as a stock, future, option, or something else.
I should add, typically the derivative kind of collapse into the underlying at some point, but in the case of an option, it might be traded 100 times before that happens, during each of those trades the actual asset (e.g. the underlying stock) doesn’t actually change possession, and a given side of the contract may or may not be changing possession. If you write a call option for a 100 shares of Ford you own, you aren’t selling the stock unless the actual call gets assigned and you are required to fulfill the contract, but the ‘buyer’ side of the contract could have been sold 100 times in the meantime.
All this to say, it’s complicated and there are lots of opportunities for shady shit to happen.
Yeah, and this should showcase just how bullshit the system is. IMO every one of those 100 trades in the middle should be taxed, this removes bullshit from the system, you can’t buy a contract saying you’ll buy the stock, because that would be buying something of that value and would be taxed. We need to start seeing those 100 trades, as what they are, i.e. a way to try to rig the system.
Not only that. It stops a lot of the AI micro trading bullshit
Most of the rich cannot just move to a tax haven. Sure someone who inherited multi-generational wealth can hide it in the Caiman island.
But if you own a canned tomato factory, or even if you’re a business consultant, you get rich because of very local things, and can’t easily move-it away.
In my limited understanding, yes, it’s possible. But it would require significant international effort to get the super rich, the ones that can pay fabulous amounts of money to
money laundererslegal tax experts that know just the right loophole to ensure that mr. billionaire will pay only 500k in taxes rather than 10 million, because tax havens only exist thanks to certain countries’ very lax rules on banking.
