Lead Lemmy Developer, Dessalines, denying the Tiananmen Square Massacre and praising the Uyghur Genocide
https://sh.itjust.works/post/8419342
Dessalines AKA “parentis_shotgun” on Reddit, is the main Lemmy dev, also the admin of lemmy.ml and lemmygrad.ml.
Their post and discussions on Reddit (archive as the original post must have been removed):
Please join the discussions for Lemmy.ml tankie censorship problem:
https://lemmy.world/post/16211417
And the discussions for finding/creating alternative communities on other instances:
https://lemmy.world/post/16235541
What is a tankie?
Tankie is a pejorative label generally applied to authoritarian communists, especially those who support acts of repression by such regimes or their allies. More specifically, the term has been applied to those who express support for one-party Marxist–Leninist socialist republics, whether contemporary or historical.
I’m glad that this is the controversy on Lemmy, and not things like Reddit had with r/JailBait.
I’m perfectly fine with just avoiding interactions with lemmy.ml communities. They can exist, even if I disagree with them. And if I wanted to participate, I’d probably be welcome so long as I follow the rules. Unlike r/Conservative, which required proving yourself to the mods to get a pass to enter or something…lol
But yes, it’s definitely good to know what the .ml stands for, and to keep that in mind whenever one sees Lemmy.ml.
And if I wanted to participate, I’d probably be welcome so long as I follow the rules.
Not only the rules, you also have to avoid critizing the dominant ideology, otherwise you will get at best dog pilled, at worse harassed and censored by moderation.
I suspect there’s way worse on the fediverse than Jailbait. There was a list posted a few months back of all the most defederated instance, and tankies didn’t even get a look in. I didn’t dare click them. Some of the domain names alone made me feel like I was going on a watchlist for even knowing about them.
I don’t doubt it. There’s definitely a difference when something is in the Fediverse though rather than all hosted on the same servers. It’s a lot easier to say “We don’t condone this” when a server is defederated from the gross ones.
I subbed to r/conservative myself I tend to like to browse most political subreddits left and right. I didn’t see any “proving yourself to get a pass to enter” I just remember making a comment on a post about Tiananmen square on the anniversary clicking the join icon then getting 2 automod messages one telling me that I’m banned from justiceserved and another alerting me that I’ve subbed to r/conservative.as simple as that. I think you might be refering to r/blackpeopletwitter which uh I think this screenshot should speak for itself
You will be surprised how much of the open source software out there is written and maintained by lefties and tankies.
Sadly conservatives seem to have either lower education and are not notorious for their sharing and selflessness.
Denying historical events and refusing to come to terms with their causes and repercussions is not a left or right problem.
You can be as communist as you want but pretending that events with photographic evidence didn’t actually happen put you in the same category as moon landing deniers in my book.
And yet so many people believe in religion without a single scientific proof. But yes, I got your point.
For the record there are a lot of shameful events in your history too, but I am sure your own government has done its utmost to hide those facts.
Just that in the US there is a massive anti China and anti Russia propaganda. Do not get me wrong, I don’t disagree with a lot of their policies, but the US isn’t also spotless and a role model in a lot of ways.
The US has so much red on its ledger it will never be balanced. And there are plenty of apologists for atrocities in our history. They’re just as bad as the Chinese or Russian (or pick whatever country you want because they’re all guilty to some extent) when they do it.
Maybe political repression and the mass killing of protestors and the internment of ethnic minorities has very little to do with a countries mode of production. Maybe you guys can advocate for an alternative mode of production without defending genocide and using the military to crack down on protests? And maybe liberals can do the same when Western Capitalist Countries do it?
please… :(
You should know /politics and /news ban anyone critical of israel and Lemmy.world is ran by Zionists.
Lemmy.world is ran by Zionists.
Do you mean people in favor of the existence of a state of Israel (original meaning) which is most of the Western world, so unsurprising, or in favor of the colonization after the 1993 “two states solution” agreement?
If it’s the later, do you have proof?I’m from Israel, and no one is using “Zionism” in the second meaning.
Zionism is, by definition, support for Israel as a Jewish state.
There are those who say “real Zionism” is supporting settlements in Gaza and the west bank, but there are also those who say “real Zionism” is an Israeli state existing alongside a Palestinian state. That’s like a US democrat saying a “true patriot” would support supplying a social safety net for the well-being of all citizens, while a US republican would say a “true patriot” would support a small government that doesn’t restrict the will of all citizens.
Personally, I feel that referring to Zionism in general as support for Israeli control over the west bank and Gaza started as a (partially successful) tactic to de-legitimize the existence of Israel. Not saying everyone who uses the term incorrectly is an antisemitic or whatever, but that’s basically where it came from.
while a US republican would say a “true patriot” would support a small government that doesn’t restrict the will of all citizens.
I don’t think they say this much anymore since all Republican policies are explicitly about restricting the will of their fellow citizens.
Personally, I feel that referring to Zionism in general as support for Israeli control over the west bank and Gaza
I never used it this way or considered it this way until the past few months. 🤔 Now you’d have a hard time convincing me that it’s not what it means.
I don’t think they say this much anymore since all Republican policies are explicitly about restricting the will of their fellow citizens.
Thant’s not really the point, though it does kinda feed into a general issue with the way both out countries (assuming you’re from the US) are divided - When was the last time you had an actual talk with a republican in order to understand what he/she thinks?
I never used it this way or considered it this way until the past few months. 🤔 Now you’d have a hard time convincing me that it’s not what it means.
Err… that’s just the definition of the word? You can look it up on any dictionary.
We could talk about the current government, it’s policy or the opinion of Israelis but saying the entire concept of Zionism equals support for Israeli control over the west bank and Gaza is not only factually wrong, it collapses the Israel-Palestine issue into a winner-take-all situation, where both sides are encouraged to beat each other in the hopes one of them will give up before both are dead.
When was the last time you had an actual talk with a republican in order to understand what he/she thinks?
Every day until the Pandemic. My republican friends now work in a different office than I do. It’s not hard to see the policies and politicians they vote for though, and I can read the handwritten signs in their yards explicitly calling me an idiot, moron, or traitor for having different views than they do. (I see those every day BTW.)
it collapses the Israel-Palestine issue into a winner-take-all situation
I’m just looking at what I’ve spent the past several months witnessing via news reporting and video clips. I’m not debating what the dictionary says about it. (And in any case, dictionaries reflect usage not prescribe it.)
Every day until the Pandemic.
Cool, good for you (seriously). Do you honestly think they’ll say they’re against the freedom of the individual, or is it that you think they’re against it? Not saying you’re right or wrong, just asking if you’re describing what you think they’ll say, their own beliefs or the beliefs/consequences of their party. It’s an important distinction, especially when trying to engage in dialogue with them.
I’m just looking at what I’ve spent the past several months witnessing via news reporting and video clips.
Maybe I don’t follow enough news outside of Israel, but I do read quite a bit and there wasn’t anything about Zionism. Could you maybe link to one or two sources?
I’m not debating what the dictionary says about it.
I’m actually not debating at all, right now I’m trying to understand you, and I’m having some difficulties. My best guess is, you seem to have issues against the Israeli army and government (me too, btw), and somehow decided that’s Zionism. Zionism is more than a century old, and there are plenty of people who call themselves Zionists, yet don’t support all the IDF and the Israeli government did during the past few months (you’re talking to one right now, and Biden is another example). Do you think these people are wrong in what their opinions are? That they’re lying? That they’re not using the correct word, even though that’s the same usage as in the dictionary?
I take issue with both the authoritarian left and authoritarian right: being an apologist for Soviet Russia as well as being an apologist for the USA is not OK in my opinion.
I find it futile to take a position on which is worse because that just gives space to be an apologist for one that’s “less bad”. I see this happening in this thread right now.
Should I defederate from both lemmy.world and lemmy.ml? Of course not. In fact, I find both to be more tolerable and cooperative than reddit today.
Enlightened centrist found in the wild
You can be left-leaning while also not a fan of neoliberalism. :)
I‘m glad that the fediverse resists excessive moderation and silencing of unwanted political opinions. I‘m not a fan of some of the things said or done on .ml but we wont do anything which is awesome. You can make your own instance and defederate, ban, block whoever you like.
To make my point clear, I made a large donation to the lemmy devs as I think they are doing awesome work. @dessalines@lemmy.ml especially is a tremendous help for the open source community.
But of course you‘re entitled to your opinion. Have a good day.
Yes let’s all just pretend their propaganda is actual opinions held by real people.
This entire thread glows and is extremely consistent with CIA goals.
You’re beyond naive if you think the Marxists are brainwashed, yet you and the “people” in this thread aren’t.
This whole lemmy tankie dev thing has been discussed ad nauseam here for the past year or so. Not sure what solutions you suggest, but if I were to filter my software by who’s an asshole dev and who’s not, that list will end up really short.
As far as the ml instance goes, I don’t agree that we should start defederating left and right with any and all undesirables, but to each their own. At least people now will be in the know, and it might take some weight off lemmy.world
I had to block a handful of bad actors, maybe around 15, and don’t have much issue now. As usual it’s a very small, very vocal minority that’s doing most of the shitting in the pool. Unfortunately many are also mods of communities like politics@lemmy.ml, so generally not subscribing to stuff there is a good policy too.
OP has been here two months, and they were shocked to find out an instance literally named after Karl Marx and John Lennin would pretend to be on the left but support authoritarian governments…
And they assume since they just “discovered” it, no one else knows.
… John Lennin?
It’s crazy to think about, but even after all these years, people insist he was bigger than Jesus
Not sure what solutions you suggest
That’s why I included this section in my post:
And the discussions for finding/creating alternative communities on other instances: https://lemmy.world/post/16235541
It’s the Vampire Castle phenomenon of online leftist spaces. One dev and instance admin of Lemmy has problematic personal beliefs, so now we aren’t allowed to be on Lemmy anymore because it’s failed an ideological purity test that OP decided for the rest of us. In other news, Jimmy Wales, the founder of Wikipedia, is a hardcore Ayn Rand style freemarket libertarian, so I guess we should all ditch wikipedia and each buy a 400 pound Encyclopedia Britannica set. Because that’ll show him to believe things I think are terrible.
It’s all so melodramatic. I’ll take a jaunt into the comments sections of these posts once in awhile to see what the libs are clutching their pearls over now. Today we have:
Oh nooooo, a dev is a ban happy shithead! How unusual and extreme! Better raise the banner and gather the troops, the tankies are coming for us all! We must defederate and/or fork a parallel Lemmy because only tankies have weird ban happy power trips! This will solve all the issues!
On the bright side, block op and the surprisingly small number of the other more vocal tankie drama lords and it gets a lot quieter.
I got a 14 day instance ban for calling a tankie a tankie on ML. Their authoritarian ideology is dangerous and it needs to be quarantined.
You are more than welcome to block any and all content from that instance. You can do this by going under your user settings and clicking on the “Blocks” tab and searching for lemmy.ml in the Block Instance section. That’s the thing about Federated content. You have the power to selectively engage with the content of your choosing. You don’t get to quarantine others because there is no centralized authority that gets to say “your instance gets stuck in an internet ghetto where it isn’t allowed to interact with other users.” You have to quarantine yourself by excluding content. If that doesn’t work for you, then maybe it’s less that you dislike their authoritarian ideology and more that it isn’t the same flavor as your own.
I blocked ML months ago. I’m still going to keep calling for large instances to defederate, because sticking my fingers in my ears doesn’t make the problem go away.
Really loving the “What does it matter if they support genocide???” commenters in here. Really showing where their priorities are.
Who gives a fuck
YSK
Why should I give a fuck
Surely the correct thing to do is move along if you don’t care.
We don’t care that you don’t care.
Because fuck you if you are tankie apologist.
Yeah, but the dude who makes my sandwiches might be one as well…
Then fuck him as well.
I’m sure it’s just a coincidence that topics like this made the rounds in several subs at the same time.
Block the instance if you’ve got a problem.
Somebody noticed a disturbing fact and wants to distribute the knowledge on multiple channels? I think I’ll allow this.
Other than that, yes, let’s lift&shift the good communities away from lemmy.ml and block it.
I may not agree with the devs political view, but I think their work developing lemmy is excellent and made me subscribe to monthly donation on opencollective. Lemmy is an open source project where the devs have absolutely no say over how the software being used, as evidenced by so many lemmy instances defederating from lemmygrad and lemmy.ml. Their political belief won’t affect other instance.
the devs have absolutely no say over how the software being used
It seems like they have some strong say when it comes to their own instance. According to some recent posts, ML admins (and maybe even mods?) have the ability to erase any record of mod actions, for example disappearing critique of the CCP’s brutal actions in Tiananmen Square that were posted on ML. That left no record in the public mod logs, and the users were never informed that their contributions had been (completely) deleted.
I’m only a 1yr Lemming myself, but I never saw such a critique aimed at any other instance, hence why I’m skeptical that the devs don’t have influence over how the software is used.
all instance admins have the ability to do this on their own instance, the functionality was added to deal with doxx info being posted so it wouldnt be visible even in the modlog, and it was used a lot to deal with the CSAM spam attack too - basically whenever this happens the relevant message will still be in the modlog but it will be changed to “Permanently Removed”. Currently there’s no evidence or even accusation that this functionality has been used for anything except the stated purposes though so i wouldnt worry too much.
That’s fine on ‘paper,’ but can you seriously not understand how it’s being shamelessly abused on the Tankie / ML front?
well i havent seen anyone even claiming its been used against them or pointing to their post being permanently removed from the modlogs unjustly, only people saying that maybe it could be used in this way, so no i dont think that the ML tankie front are using it that way. and since i know it has been used for its stated purpose to fully remove actual doxx information and child porn i dont see why it should be removed as a feature, at very least until there’s some evidence of it being used maliciously
Well then, good for you.
Meanwhile, there’s been a legion of solid users here pointing out across the FV that the ML has in fact been abusing its admin powers, or did you think that the whataboutism of CSA would somehow, magically erase that shizzle?
If so, then shame on you.
I didnt say that lemmy.ml mods havent been overbearing with their moderation i said “i havent seen anyone even claiming its been used against them or pointing to their post being permanently removed from the modlogs unjustly”.
if you want me to spell it out slowly i can:
- lemmy.ml mods have abused admin powers at some points
- it is possible that the lemmy.ml people could abuse this admin power
- as far as im aware there is no evidence that anyone has misused this specific admin power
- this specific admin power has been used to remove child porn and dox info
- since this admin power has been used for good reasons and hasnt been used for bad reasons it shouldnt be removed as an admin power
as far as im aware there is no evidence that anyone has misused this specific admin power
In that case, then congrats for living in your own little delirium, apart from the many, many reports people have made reporting those specific abuses.
the devs have absolutely no say over how the software being used
According to some recent posts, ML admins (and maybe even mods?) have the ability to erase any record of mod actions, for example disappearing critique of the CCP’s brutal actions in Tiananmen Square that were posted on ML. That left no record in the public mod logs, and the users were never informed that their contributions had been (completely) deleted.
That isn’t an example of them having a say over how people use the software. That’s them using their own property as they wish.
It’s more than just that IMO. It’s breaking the stated aim of open federation by tampering with comments, posts and mod records, which in turn get propagated or de-propagated to connected instances, right?
Yes, you may say that ML is of course free to screw with their own instance, but 1) one instance (particular a significant one like ML) affects other instances, and 2) they’re breaking the spirit of their own software by shamelessly abusing admin powers, in turn helping to normalize that behavior to the Lemmy side of the FV.
What’s the point of leaving oppressive, commercial social media only to run in to the same kinds of abuse of power on a supposedly transparent, user-run, P2P social network?
Most instances are federated with Lemmy.ml, it’s Hexbear and Grad that .world and a few others have defederated from, among the major instances.
Regarding lemmy.ml: yes, you should avoid it. It does not make sense to create politically-neutral communities on a politically-oriented instance.
Regarding Dessalines: The great thing about Lemmy is that I don’t need to give a shit about the lead developer’s politics, because he’s not in control of how Lemmy is used, and if he ever tried some kind of heinous cross-instance power grab, it would get shut down before it got started.
Regarding the cognitive dissonance required to A) value decentralization of power, and also B) support the CCP: 🤦
Regarding the cognitive dissonance required to A) value decentralization of power, and also B) support the CCP: 🤦
One of the tenets of Marxism-Leninism is that a dictatorship is required to guide the proletariat to communist society (which would be completely stateless). So the dissonance is inherent in Leninist dogma 🤷
Dictatorship of the Proletariat. This is used in contrast with Capitalist Liberal Democracy, which Marx called the Dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie. It doesn’t refer to a literal Dictatorship as we commonly understand it, but instead to whichever class controls the state, Capitalists or Workers.
Lenin didn’t invent the concept of the DotP, that was Marx, and was his way of advocating for violent revolution, which in Engels words is “the most authoritarian action one could take” in his essay On Authourity.
As for Communism being Stateless, yes, technically, but as a long result of elimination of contradictions. Marx didn’t see the state as an “evil” so much as a tool that would eventually just be unnecessary, same as Money, not a temporary sacrifice for something eventually greater. This is outlined in Critique of the Gotha Programme.
All well and good, but the term dictatorship here still refers to a situation where the state apparatus has complete control over the means of production, in other words a total centralisation of power. Indeed in Marxism-Leninism the dictatorship takes the form of a vanguard party forming a single party state. Whichever way you look at it, practical power resides with a very small group of individuals.
The contrast with the eventual stateless communist society, in which power would be completely decentralised, is quite striking. It’s not quite clear to me how Marxist-Leninist theory envisioned the transition from one to the other, although it seems to me there was a general feeling that central economic planning and industrialization would fairly quickly lead to the end of scarcity altogether, which in hindsight seems… very optimistic.
If you ask me, the ideals of communism mostly died around the same time as Lenin. Pretty much all communist states that have existed (and currently exist) are mainly interested in maintaining their own power structures rather than actually working their way towards the idealised communist society. Which pretty much just makes them dictatorships in the classical sense.
Yes, Marx and later Lenin argued for complete centralization of power in the hands of the proletariat, and in Lenin’s case, an additional group of well-read proletarians dedicated to leading the revolution.
A common misconception is that a non-ML revolution wouldn’t have a vanguard, Lenin is literally just referring to whoever is the most advanced and leading the revolution. A vanguard may be a group of Anarchists trying to lead the revolution, even if they don’t use Democratic Centralism like Lenin did and advocates for in State and Revolution.
Marx also didn’t believe there would one day be a state and the next it would collapse, same with Lenin. They believed that over time the Material Conditions would lessen the need for a state until it “whithered away” over time. It wouldn’t be a relinquishing of power, but a shrinking.
Complete statelessness would have the same centralized power as Socialism, just without a state. This centralization becomes a decentralization, in that the Proletariat can democratically operate the Means of Production, which they cannot under Capitalism. If this sounds confusing, Marx makes this clear in Critique of the Gotha Programme. You refer to the state as an “other,” distinct from the workers, when it is an extension of them and made up of them in Socialism, according to Marx. There would still be a government, just no means by which one class oppresses another.
Marx was not an Anarchist, who instead believe in free association and networks of mutual aid.
I don’t believe Communism has died. It may seem that way if you see systems as static, and not as ever-changing and evolving along with humanity and technology.
Anyone else seeing the irony of objecting to ml politics being discussed on a platform built by a ml for discussing and organizing around ml politics?
I had my first ever comment, in decades of forums/reddit usage, get mod deleted because I was critical of China and the USSR. It was a fairly mild criticism. That action turned me off the whole instance.
They learn from who they are worshipping. Exactly how the CCP control the narratives.
Sad that you chose an .ml community to come back to. You can’t talk about Russia or China at all without getting deleted there, unless it’s saying that Tienamen Square never happened or something like that.
