Some of the top browser makers around have issued a letter to the European Commission (EC) alleging that Microsoft gives the Edge browser an unfair advantage and should be subject to EU tech rules.

A letter seen by Reuters, sent by Vivaldi, Waterfox, and Wavebox, and supported by a group of web developers, also supports Opera’s move to take the EC to court over its decision to exclude Microsoft Edge from being subject to the Digital Markets Act (DMA).

As Edge comes pre-installed by default on Windows machines, users must navigate the Microsoft offering in order to download their browser of choice. The letter states that, “No platform independent browser can aspire to match Edge’s unparalleled distribution advantage on Windows. Edge is, moreover, the most important gateway for consumers to download an independent browser on Windows PCs.”

  • nek0d3r@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    0
    ·
    13 hours ago

    I completely understand where this is coming from, but I’m just a little confused about what the solution would be. For the average consumer and certainly the target users for Windows, shipping with a browser is the expected norm, and none are expected to open a terminal, much less run tools like winget. I guess you could have a setup dialog of major browsers to choose from?

    • linearchaos@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      0
      ·
      8 hours ago

      I can think of some options

      Level 1: Allow uninstall of edge. They can have the engine still for store/background processes, but no user icon. You can use edge to install other browsers then remove it.

      Level 2: same as level one, but it comes “uninstalled”. OOBE asks you to choose a browser.

      Level 3: They rip out the deep integration they knew damn well they shouldn’t have done because their asses were handed to them in the IE days.

    • squid_slime@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      0
      ·
      13 hours ago

      Click ‘browse web’ Microsoft gives a list of popular and mixed browsers that the user can select. Microsoft then installs selected browser. At least this is the only tangible way I can see.

      • rmuk@feddit.uk
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        0
        ·
        12 hours ago

        Anyone else remember this badboy?

        For the uninitiated, BrowserChoice.eu was a popup and associated website that Microsoft was forced to create by the EU courts becasue of their monopoly in 2010.

        Also, an opinion: Edge was a great browser even before they switched to Chromium. I wish they’d kept at it so there was a better variety of rendering engines out there.

        • noughtnaut@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          0
          ·
          11 hours ago

          Yes, I’m really confused about this article - isn’t what you describe still in effect? Why on earth not? (I haven’t used Windows in ages so I personally have never seen that.)

          • sushibowl@feddit.nl
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            0
            ·
            7 hours ago

            Microsoft and the European Commission agreed to an initial period of five years. That ended in 2014, and the measure was not extended mainly for two reasons:

            1. Data showed the selection screen had had essentially no effect on browser market share whatsoever.
            2. This period was basically the height of browser competition, with Chrome, Safari, IE, and Firefox all showing significant market share.

            With competition in the browser market seemingly healthy, and the browser ballot not doing much to affect it, it was seen as pointless to keep requiring Microsoft to display it.

  • Matriks404@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    0
    ·
    edit-2
    13 hours ago

    You could say the same about Android and iOS. They are preloaded with a web browser not many people change. In fact I’ve noticed that many users (mostly older) using Android don’t even know what browser they are using, since they just type shit into Google widget on their home screen.

    • f4f4f4f4f4f4f4f4@sopuli.xyz
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      0
      ·
      8 hours ago

      IIRC Samsung devices default to a Samsung web browser labelled “Internet”. You wouldn’t want to disable the “Internet”, right?

      iOS seems even more egregious, where it’s internally using Safari no matter what browser you install, giving the illusion of choice.

    • Mwa@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      0
      ·
      edit-2
      10 hours ago

      And some linux distros bcs somtimes it’s preloaded with firefox and chromium and also macos with safari

  • bitwolf@lemmy.one
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    0
    ·
    1 day ago

    MS is literally back to square one its about damn time.

    They’re even worse now and aggressively pressure you to use edge if it’s not the default.

  • jaemo@sh.itjust.works
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    0
    ·
    1 day ago

    As it’s based on chromium, I’d call what it has a handicap and just keep on using Firefox.

    • tiny@midwest.social
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      0
      ·
      15 hours ago

      The issue isn’t how it’s built or based on its that Microsoft can use its control of the os to make it extremely difficult to avoid it.

    • towerful@programming.dev
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      0
      ·
      10 hours ago

      The issue is with how aggressive Microsoft is about it.

      Trying to download chrome? “Hey, are you sure you don’t want to try Edge?”.
      Changing default browser? “Hey, are you sure you don’t want to try Edge?”.
      Windows update… “We’ve done you a solid, because we know you want to use Edge”.
      I’m sure at one point, it was a warning in the security center that you aren’t using Edge.
      Also Teams (in sure there are others) will open links in Edge, despite what default browser you have set.

      • Echo Dot@feddit.uk
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        0
        ·
        16 hours ago

        Haven’t they been told they’ve got to stop doing that now?

        I thought the European commission had forced them to allow other browsers to actually use their own render engines

    • icedterminal@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      0
      ·
      1 day ago

      An out of the box OS should include a browser. Microsoft takes a ham-fisted approach, however, Apple makes it entirely possible to uninstall Safari. You do have to jump through the hoop of disabling System Integrity Protection to remove it, but it’s simple as trashing the app and deleting the data. I speak from experience. Very easy to do.

      • njordomir@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        0
        ·
        14 hours ago

        Seriously, showing a pop up confirmation if the user tries to uninstall the last browser on the device is all that is needed.

        • Echo Dot@feddit.uk
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          0
          ·
          16 hours ago

          Would not be Linux then? I’m pretty certain Mac OS isn’t even in the top three mostly because their os is tied to computers and their computers are stupidly expensive and only westerners can really afford them with any degree of regularity.

          • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            0
            ·
            12 hours ago

            Not by market share on desktops in particular Western countries, no.

            In the world - yes, I’d expect there to be more Linux desktops really existing than MacOS desktops.

            Apple is the West in a nutshell, though. When a real need or a problem is mentioned, it’s mentioned only rarely as some selling point - like Jobs saying MacOSX is “very Linux-like” (sic). When a solution reaches reality, it’s done in a neutered way - like Apple still regularly releasing sources. When a real need is fulfilled, you can expect twice the effort to have been covertly spent on negating its effect - like with Apple’s “just works” and sterility and even privacy selling points, which come with walled gardens, closed APIs, short and bad support, and them actually still spying on you. A declaration of effort to tackle any problem existing in the wild is always aimed at portrayal of said effort to be persuasive enough to sell the product and the more efficient, the better, where efficiency means that actually doing anything other than persuasion is against the goal.

            See, the difference between market mechanisms and geopolitics is not in people deciding that there’ll be this set of rules here and that set of rules there. It’s due to structure. The bigger that structure makes companies, the more similar market dynamic and scientific&technical progress will be to geopolitics.

            Which is why I genuinely don’t understand people who frown at “techno-luddites” like me dreaming of going back to decentralized, even if with worse compatibility, hardware production and simpler software and formats. I would even say that some degree of protectionism from less developed countries would help, where hardware can be imported only if there’s domestic alternative production to match.

            I’m more on the libertarian side, but if in XIX century weapons ownership was widespread, and in XX century it stopped being such, because of one’s ability to kill much more people quickly, then the same with electronics would make sense by the same principle. Only the qualitative difference in power comes not with the device, but with the centralized production line it comes from.

            Of course, that’s not my proposition. It wouldn’t work.

            My proposition would be to try to design some “civilization minimized”, where sufficiently usable computers can be produced in an area of 100k people, with society, industry, communications and warfare approaches optimized for that limitation. That kind of limitation for a self-contained unit of civilization, so to say.

            So - one can buy a reasonably good laptop for 500$ today.

            What kind of laptop can one produce for that sum in a 100k people settlement? Is that even possible to make it close to 500$ in relative value?

            I’d expect we’d need to solve all heavy problems with specialized boards. I think lithography is actually applicable here - we don’t need it very precise, it’s far above our possibilities in such a hypothetical unit, and it would improve resource usage efficiency. And I think a more compact machine of PDP-11 level is possible, with specialized boards in Amiga ideology. I also think we can even have some kind of machine learning, but with analog storage of coefficients to reach anything close to sufficient efficiency. It would be a Fallout-kind computer, nothing fancy, but - possibly usable. For dedicated boards (some of which can, again, solve problems with analog approaches) there is a possibility of optronic elements being more accessible and energy-efficient.

            There’s a question of portability - one can expect lithium to just not be realistically available in any random area of the world populated by 100k people. I mean, trying to imagine some autarky …

            So maybe not a laptop, LOL.

            Nah. That’s bullshit. That won’t work. At least not every 100k people. Maybe every 10mln.

    • T156@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      0
      ·
      2 days ago

      Yes, but they’ve got the advantage of having done it for longer, and not stirred the pot.

      I honestly don’t think it would have been an issue for Microsoft if they just decided to sit on Internet Explorer instead of trying to push everyone into using Edge.

  • ichbinjasokreativ@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    0
    ·
    2 days ago

    running “winget install firefox” in an elevated powershell gets you a better browser without ever opening edge. but then you still cannot uninstall it and all the other shit about it still stays active.

  • dgmib@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    0
    ·
    2 days ago

    I’m not defending Microsoft… but if we’re going to go after a tech company for leveraging their other assets to give themselves an unfair advantage can we also go after Google?

    In the first releases of Edge, Microsoft tried to build a new web browser from scratch to compete with Google Chrome. By google kept changing YouTube’s code so that videos would playback janky on Edge. Microsoft eventually gave up trying to fix for YouTubes ongoing changes and now Edge is based on Chromium (the same open source web browser maintained by Google, that chrome os built on). Google leveraged YouTube to prevent completion from Edge.

    And now Google is blocking ad blocking extensions so that users are forced to see more google ads in their browser.

    Microsoft’s has leveraged their unfair advantage to get a little over 5% market share.

    Google’s leveraged their unfair advantage to get 66% of the market.

    Both companies need a hard smack down, but I want to see Google taken down too.

    • Echo Dot@feddit.uk
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      0
      ·
      16 hours ago

      The early versions of edge were absolutely terrible and didn’t support modern standards. I fully believe that YouTube didn’t work on Edge but I don’t believe it was anything to do with Google and everything to do with Microsoft not being able to build a web browser.

      • Katana314@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        0
        ·
        8 hours ago

        I’m a web dev, fully disagree with you. I don’t even think this comment is based in any reality, just MS hatred (which, to be fair, I currently hate them for other reasons, but it’s a big company with many parts)

        I warned my colleagues against doing all development and testing in Chrome, because they would inevitably code towards “Webkit features” unknowingly, and leave both Edge and Firefox in the dust. I set up Edge as my default because, in an effort to catch up in popularity, they were being very strict and communicative with standards. If I wrote a page to work in Edge, it would work in other browsers. Meanwhile, there were horrific features like linear gradients that needed a full 15 lines of CSS specifically because Webkit would implement it, realize their implementation had gaps, reimplement it, and end up with 14 used-in-release syntaxes that you needed to account for, instead of the Edge/Firefox “Build it right” philosophy.

        I sincerely doubt the current YouTube situation is actually because YouTube is a complex site. 90% of the motivation for whatever feature they’re putting in is to push Chrome and fuck over other browsers.

        • Echo Dot@feddit.uk
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          0
          ·
          edit-2
          3 hours ago

          I’m not saying that I like the fact that they’ve gone over to a new render engine, I don’t.

          But frankly the alternative wasn’t working and either they couldn’t or were unwilling to put in the effort to develop their own system.

          I fully believe Google might have been doing some messing around with YouTube. but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they did and no one was ever able to provide any evidence for the accusation.

          With regards to things like linear gradients, kind of get your point but also at the same time who the hell still codes raw CSS? I’ve been out of the industry for probably about 8 years and even back then people were using SASS, so needing a bunch of vendor prefixes is kind of irrelevant really.

        • Echo Dot@feddit.uk
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          0
          ·
          edit-2
          11 hours ago

          What do you mean history disagrees with me? If you look at reviews of Microsoft edge when it released pretty much all of them talk about how it lacked compatibility with modern standards and was nowhere close to feature complete. Large parts of the HTML5 spec were missing, including any support for webm or ogg encoding.

          • sunbeam60@lemmy.one
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            0
            ·
            9 hours ago

            I mean that there is several indicators that Google did indeed try to sabotage other browsers on YouTube.

            • Echo Dot@feddit.uk
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              0
              ·
              edit-2
              9 hours ago

              That was a claim that was made yes, but never proven.

              Meanwhile what I said is demonstrably verifiable. Early versions of Microsoft edge that they put out were an absolute travesty, and all of the criticism leveled at it was 100% earned, it had nothing to do with any machinations from Google. Microsoft made a terrible browser put it out to the general public and were rightfully criticized for it. They couldn’t fix it so they switched to chromium.

    • lud@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      0
      ·
      1 day ago

      Any source that YouTube is the reason that Edge switched to chromium?

      I’m betting it’s just cheaper and easier than making their own engine.

    • Demdaru@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      0
      ·
      2 days ago

      Please, please do act on google too. Didn’t knew about YT thing, but god I loved Spartan Edge. It was soo…resource unintensive. It…simply did it job, was quick, low resource, looked good… :( I switched to it from chrome and then it became chrome.

      • Yi K@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        0
        ·
        2 days ago

        YT does a lot of sneaky sneaky stuff. My Firefox constantly lagged on YT pages until one day I installed UserAgent-Switcher and pretended I was a Chrome. The lag went away.

        And no it doesn’t work now.

        • Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          0
          ·
          13 hours ago

          Don’t have any of the switcher things ony my firefox deskrop and mobile.
          The only modifications I use are uBlock origin.

        • Kallioapina@lemmy.dbzer0.com
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          0
          ·
          15 hours ago

          Its working for me now, I tested it this morning. Even tried swithching the user agent back to Firefox and yep - Youtube gets magically some buffering problems with it.

          Close youtube tab, switch user agent back to chrome, clear cache and restart the browser: no buffering problems. What a bunch of assholes.

          I’ve reported this earlier to EU competition ombudsman, like a about a year ago, and they confirmed then that they were getting reports about the issue, Google of course denying the practice. Hopefully they are working on some punishment for Google in the background.

  • finitebanjo@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    0
    ·
    2 days ago

    Theres like 2 or 3 commonly supported browser engines and the people who run them are complaining about unfair monopoly by a browser whose main purpose is to find another browser?

  • xia@lemmy.sdf.org
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    0
    ·
    2 days ago

    …and we all know what that advantage can do! (Covertly looks in IE’s direction)