An old comic that feels oh so relevant in this tumultuous election year.
Source: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/an-important-distinction
What a dumbass take.
The difference is much simpler. Patriotism for internal conflicts, nationalism for external conflicts. Both for manufactured Boogeymen fueled by malicious propaganda.
Patriotism and Nationalism are basically the same thing. The distinction is nonsensical, especially in this context.
good ol’ Lemmy’s lack of nuance.
Also, if you vote, you are ethnically tied to, and guilty of, every decision and moral misstep of that politician until the end of time.
You’ll have to explain, since in the comic the main premise of both Nationalism and Patriotism is that “this house is mine ergo it is the best”.
(Also historically the distinction would be that Nationalism is about establishing an ethno-state, while Patriotism is the basically-unconditional loving of your state, be it ethno or otherwise.)
so, you got the start, where the similarities were laid out, but you skipped the title and then the rest where the distinction - the differences - were laid out.
you want me to explain the entire thing to you. word by word. panel by panel. 🤦♂️ ffs. You’re the sort of person who wears velcro shoes, but not by choice.
Or, I’ll you’ll bear with me, I reject the arbitrary and contrived difference the comic puts forwards.
You’ll surely grant that in real life there is a lot of co-morbidity between the two conditions - even if you personally might not agree that the improvements to the house that the people you label as Nationalist would try to implement. Which is the Patriot’s quality.
I take issue with the first panel.
To me, patriotism is “I’m going to work on my house because I love the people who live in it and I want them all to have the best house.”
If you start from the assumption that your country is the “best” that’s nationalism and straying too close to the roots of xenophobia.
Yeah, it’s maybe the greatest difference between Patriotism and Nationalism: the former is all about “I’ll work to make my house the best house” whilst the latter is about “Yield to me, as I am from the best house”.
Patriots want their country to be the best country, Nationalist want to extract gains from living in what they think is the best country.
You’ll notice that the only things Nationalists ever do for their country are things like “stopping others from coming here” or “celebrating the greatness of their country”, which aren’t at all about making the country better.
Patriotism also sucks, because it implements a bias that can then be exploited, and brings very little to the table.
State-level patriotism also makes you complicit in the division of people by countries and nations, as opposed to classes and other valid groups of people.
And there is no valid reason to have some special relation to your country. It is natural to feel ties with the place you were born or the place you spent a lot of time in, this is human psychology, but your country is nothing but a piece of land that was marked by somebody as belonging to some virtual entity.
We should ditch state-level patriotism as a concept and treat local-level patriotism as a natural bias. We should strive to help people of all places and origins, and come together as one.
Patriotism also sucks, because it implements a bias that can then be exploited, and brings very little to the table.
patriotism is a very personal thing, by the very definition of it. You simply cannot apply it outside of yourself. If you are outwardly patriotic. You have already fucked up.
I would argue there is a valid reason to have some form of special relation to your country, your country is simply, not any other existing country. If you live in estonia, you have a fully digital government. If you live in america you have one of the foundational democratic governments of modern society, as well as a particular cultural history (though turbulent, rather remarkable) as well as a particularly unusual geography and land usage. If you live in europe, you live in a moderately to high density populated area, that is highly socialized, and cooperative. Etc. Etc. Etc.
The fundamental problem here is thinking that europe is worse than america, simply because it’s different. What you’re applying here is a soviet level utilitarian “collective” identity.
Though i agree with the state level patriotism, that’s fucking weird, stop doing that.
It is one thing to acknowledge the positives of a place you’re in, and other to be proud of some arbitrary landmass.
Europe is not worse than America, both have their upsides and downsides. I can say that as a Russian, and I also acknowledge the positives and negatives of living in Russia in general and my city in particular. All are good at something, and bad at something else.
At the same time, I do not want to leave my city. I have people here that I’m warmly related to and I feel safe and comfortable here; I know the city, know its unwritten rules, I feel myself at home. There are places in here I intimately know and adore. Moving cities would be a major pain for me, and at first I wouldn’t feel at my place; moving countries is straight up insane for me.
But I know this is because I’m used to the place and know it deeply, and feel comfy with that arrangement; if I would leave, I would feel nostalgic of times I’ve spent here, and I would always react more to any events that happen here, even when I leave. This is all my bias, and it is something we all have. I guess this is the core of local-level patriotism.
But it doesn’t make me hold special feelings towards the entirety of Russia. I have no ties with Siberia, to which I’ve never been, and to me it would be more foreign than, say, forests of Finland, which are way closer to what I see in my area and are more intimately familiar. Kamchatka is exotic to me, not familiar and warm. And I fail to understand why it should be different, other than for the will of the people in power who want to create some special Russian identity for me to be proud of.
Europe is not worse than America, both have their upsides and downsides. I can say that as a Russian, and I also acknowledge the positives and negatives of living in Russia in general and my city in particular. All are good at something, and bad at something else.
are their upsides to living in russia? Seems like right now wouldn’t be a particularly good time. Really the only thing i can think of off the top of my head is piracy, and maybe some more lax internet rules. But that’s about it.
Your post pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter in completion.
Yes, piracy and lackluster Internet regulation is one particularly good thing.
Also, costs are generally low, which greatly offsets the lower revenue. Russia is the fourth economy by GDP by purchasing power parity, so it’s not to be underestimated.
Fuel, food, electricity and water, and a lot of other stuff is WAY cheaper than in Europe. Some Europeans living near the border drive to Russia to this day to get some goods for cheap and also fuel their cars.
Russia has lush forests, a lot of water, and amazing nature. It does have polluted cities, but for the most of it, air quality is high.
Most people here have their own countryside summer home, which serves as a wonderful retreat.
Social security is not amazing, but good enough; also, healthcare is greatly improving in the last years, despite some of the sanctions (generally though, medical goods are allowed to enter Russia from everywhere)
On the flip side, the country is obviously ruled by a bloodthirsty maniac that crushes descent, sanctions lead to unavailability of many products and services, I cannot go to Finland to see my brother, and economy is screeching under the load of a war machine that kills our fellows (and Ukrainians were always seen from Russia as rogue, but beloved members of the Eastern Slavic family) for no valid reason.
Also, the economic consequences of war lead to all sorts of weird consequences; for example, high key interest rate meant to keep money inside results to completely crazy loan conditions, like mortgages with 19% APR - you are literally supposed to pay one fifth of a price for an accommodation AS INTEREST EVERY YEAR. Before war, it was in the 5-7% range. As such, house owning is not an option at all. Also, markets are highly volatile, and it is hard to save any money.
huh, interesting, rather informative. Appreciate the insight.
I suppose if you’re somehow making money from western economies it’s probably a pretty good gig. Are the domestic wages any decent? I’ve heard russia has issues with braindrain, for more educated fields, since pay and living standards are often higher outside of russia. Though i’ve never looked into it.
It’ll be interesting to see what happens economically as the war continues, or as it ends.
Yes, it is profitable to work in Western economies, but current political situation often makes it outright impossible, and back in the days when it was possible it wasn’t super common - mostly due to language barrier (most Russians are not fluent in any foreign language, including English) and the culture that pressures people to stay in. Phrases like “you’re good where you’re born” are common sayings here.
High-profile specialists, though, are the first to leave for sure, in search of higher wages, a safer/better place to be, etc. etc.
Also now that a lot of male population was under the threat of mobilization, a lot of young people have fled the country to where they could, taking their families with them.
There was a thing with freelance work on international platforms that brought good money without having to leave the country, but soon after freelance economy started truly booming, Russia started the war which ended up in main payment channels being closed - and barely anyone outside IT specialists offers serious freelance work paid in crypto or by other means.
Yes, it is profitable to work in Western economies, but current political situation often makes it outright impossible, and back in the days when it was possible it wasn’t super common - mostly due to language barrier (most Russians are not fluent in any foreign language, including English) and the culture that pressures people to stay in. Phrases like “you’re good where you’re born” are common sayings here.
what about online? Say game dev or something. I believe tarkov is russian based no? Though they have an HQ in the UK i think, for monetary purposes.
There was a thing with freelance work on international platforms that brought good money without having to leave the country, but soon after freelance economy started truly booming, Russia started the war which ended up in main payment channels being closed - and barely anyone outside IT specialists offers serious freelance work paid in crypto or by other means.
yeah, that sounds about right.
I would say patriotism is when you love the ideas a nation is built on and stands for, while nationalism is when you love the people and history of a nation.
As a european it’s very hard to love the former, since we’ve been here for more than a thousand years meaning whatever ideas our forefathers might have had in mind are rightfully gone now. However over this time we developed our own culture and became a nation of people which we can love instead.
Nationalism doesn’t have to be toxic as it’s often depicted, if someone belives their nation is “better” that’s called chauvinism. Nationalism is just when you feel your nation is special for you at least and that makes you want to better it.
I don’t think that your differentiazion between patriotism and nationalism is correct. Nationalism always began with the invention of nations through national movements. The nation building in europe began in the 18th century, not a thousand years ago. Nationalism always refers to the invented history of a nation (“a thousand years ago”), while patriotism can refer to the political system or the constitutional documents.
I think both are awful because there is a really fine line to chauvinism. The positive view of oneselfes too often comes with the devaluation of others.
![An Important Distinction [Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal]](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/1476886340-20161019.png){kind=link}