It’s the same claim when tools like Integromat, WayScript, PureData, vvvv and other VPLs (Visual Programming Languages) started to get some hype. I once worked for a company that strongly believed they’d “retire the need for coding”, and my ex-boss was so confident and happy about that… Although VPLs were a practical thing, time is the ruler of truth, and for every dev-related job vacancy I see, they ask some programming language, the written ones (JS, PHP, Python, Ruby, Lua, and so on).
Because if you look closely, deep inside, voila, there’s code in anything that is claimed to be no-code! Wow, could anyone imagine that? 🤯 /sarcasm
I made this meme a while back and I think it’s relevant
Looking at your examples, and I have to object at putting scratch in there.
My kids use it in clubs, and it’s great for getting algorithmic basics down before the keyboard proficiency is there for real coding.
that’s just how the code is rendered. There’s still all the usual constructs
It’s still code. What makes scratch special is that it structurally rules out syntax errors while still looking quite like ordinary code. Node editors – I have a love and hate relationship with them. When you’re in e.g. Blender throwing together a shader it’s very very nice to have easy visualisation of literally everything, but then you know you want to compute
abs(a) + sin(b) + c^2and yep that’s five nodes right there because apparently even the possibility to type in a formula is too confusing for artists. Never mind that Blender allows you to input formulas (without variables though) into any field that accepts a number.
Cloud tech seller sells cloud
Can I join anyone’s band of AI server farm raiders 24 months from now? Anyone forming a group? I will bring my meat bicycle.
If you go forward 12 months the AI bubble will have burst. If not sooner.
Most companies who bought into the hype are now (or will be soon) realizing it’s nowhere near the ROI they hoped for, that the projects they’ve been financing are not working out, that forcing their people to use Copilot did not bring significant efficiency gains, and more and more are realizing they’ve been exchanging private and/or confidential data with Microsoft and boy there’s a shitstorm gathering on that front.
If you have the ability to build an AI app in house - holy shit shit that can improve productivity. Copilot itself for office use… Meh so far.
The most successful ML in-house projects I’ve seen took at least 3 times as long than initially projected to become usable, and the results were underwhelming.
You have to keep in mind that most of the corporate ML undertakings are fundamentally flawed because they don’t use ML specialists. They use eager beavers who are enthusiastic about ML and entirely self-taught and will move on in 1 year and want to have “AI” on their resume when they leave.
Meanwhile, any software architect worth their salt will diplomatically avoid to give you any clear estimate for anything having to do with ML – because it’s basically a black box full of hopes and dreams. They’ll happily give you estimates and build infrastructure around the box but refuse to touch the actual thing with a ten foot pole.
I’m going to call BS on that unless they are hiding some new models with huge context windows…
For anything that’s not boilerplate, you have to type more as a prompt to the AI than just writing it yourself.
Also, if you have a behaviour/variable that is common to something common, it will stubbornly refuse to do what you want.
Have you ever attempted to fill up one of those monster context windows up with useful context and then let the model try to do some useful task with all the information in it?
I have. Sometimes it works, but often it’s not pretty. Context window size is the new MHz, in terms of misleading performance measurements.
I find there comes a point where, even with a lot of context, the AI just hasn’t been trained to solve the problem. At that point it will cycle you round and round the same few wrong answers until you give up and work it out yourself.
24 months from now? Unlikely lol
15 years at least. probably more like 30. and it will be questionable, because it will use a lot of energy for every query and a lot of resources for cooling
it will use a lot of energy for every query and a lot of resources for cooling
Well, so do coders. Coffee can be quite taxing on the environment, as can air conditioning!
That’s probably the amount of time remaining before they move on to selling the next tech buzz word to some suckers.
And just like that, they’ll forget about these previous statements as well.
I fear Elon Musk’s broken promises method is being admired and copied.
I’m sure they’ll hold strong to that prediction in 24 mo. It’s just 24 more months away
We’ll have full self driving next year.
This is the year of the Linux Desktop
I remember a little over a decade ago while I was still in public school hearing about super advanced cars that had self driving were coming soon, yet we’re hardly anywhere closer to that goal (if you don’t count the Tesla vehicles running red lights incidents).
A subscription to Popular Science magazine through most of my teen years did wonders for my skepticism.
We should all be switched to hydrogen fuel by now, for our public transport lines with per person carriages that can split off from the main line seamlessly at speed to go off on side routes to your individual destination, that automatically rejoin the main line when you’re done with it. They were talking about all of that pre-2010.
I think I remember the hydrogen fuel thing.
Also, fuck Popular Science for making me think there was gonna be a zombie apocalypse due to some drug that turns you into a zombie.
In Phoenix you can take a Waymo (self driving taxi) just like an Uber. They have tons of ads and they’re everywhere on the roads.
I am in Phoenix and just took one to the airport. First time riding in a Waymo. It was uncannily good and much more confident than the FSD Tesla I’ve ridden in a few times.
I haven’t taken one yet but have several friends who have. Besides being generally good, one of the best parts is unlike Uber, there’s no chance that you have a weird driver that wants to talk to you the whole ride
Guys selling something claim it will make you taller and thinner, your dick bigger, your mother in law stop calling, and work as advertised.
All the manufacturers of mechanical keyboards just cried 🥺
Sure, Microsoft is happy to let their AIs scan everyone else’s code., but is anyone aware of any software houses letting AIs scan their in-house code?
Any lawyer worth their salt won’t let AIs anywhere near their company’s proprietary code intil they are positive that AI isn’t going to be blabbing the code out to every one of their competitors.
But of course, IANAL.
The LLMs they train on their code will only be accessible internally. They won’t leak their own intellectual property.
If only we had an overarching structure that everyone in society has agreed exists for the purposes of enforcing laws and regulating things. Something that governs people living in a region… Maybe then they could be compelled to show exactly what they’re using, and what those models are being trained with.
Oh well.
Will that not be more experiensive than having developers?
Possibly. It’s hard to know without seeing the numbers and assessing output quality and volume.
Also it’s not unheard of that some bigwig wastes millions of company €€ for some project they fancy. (Billions if they happen to be Elon)
Depends on the use case. Training local llms is a lot cheaper after Galore and there are ways to get useful local models with only a moderate amount of effort, see e.g. augmentoolkit.
This may or may not be practical in many use cases.
24 months is pretty generous but no doubt there will be significantly less demand for junior developers in the near future.
Of course not. It will be more expensive and they’ll still have to pay developers to figure out what’s wrong with their AI code.
Yeah which is why this is a dumb statement from Amazon. But then again I don’t expect C-suite managers to really understand the intricacies of their own companies.
How will federal contracts work?
Seriously how can these CEOs of a GPU company not talk to a developer. You have loads of them to interview
They obviously have to sell something. I doubt that they honestly think that this will happen.
It will be interesting to find out if these words will come back and haunt them.
- “I think there is a world market for maybe five computers”.
- “640K ought to be enough for anybody.”
Translation: “We’re going to make the suite for building, testing, and deploying so obnoxiously difficult to integrate with your work environment that in two years nobody in your DevOps team will be able to get anything to a release state.”
Me, fiddling with a config file for a legacy Perl script that’s been holding up the ass-end of the business since 1996: “Uh, yeah that’s great.”
The only people who would say this are people that don’t know programming.
LLMs are not going to replace software devs.
I can see the statement in the same way word processing displaced secretaries.
There used to be two tiers in business. Those who wrote ideas/solutions and those who typed out those ideas into documents to be photocopied and faxed. Now the people who work on problems type their own words and email/slack/teams the information.
In the same way there are programmers who design and solve the problems, and then the coders who take those outlines and make it actually compile.
LLM will disrupt the programmers leaving the problem solvers.
There are still secretaries today. But there aren’t vast secretary pools in every business like 50 years ago.
I thought by this point everyone would know how computers work.
That, uh, did not happen.
It’ll have to improve a magnitude for that effect. Right now it’s basically an improved stack overflow.
…and only sometimes improved. And it’ll stop improving if people stop using Stack Overflow, since that’s one of the main places it’s mined for data.
Nah, it’s built into the editors and repos these days.
?
If no one uses Stack Overflow anymore, then no one posts new answers. So AI has no new info to mine.
They are mining the IDE and GitHub.
There is no reason to believe that LLM will disrupt anyone any time soon. As it stands now the level of workmanship is absolutely terrible and there are more things to be done than anyone has enough labor to do. Making it so skilled professionals can do more literally just makes it so more companies can produce quality of work that is not complete garbage.
Juniors produce progressively more directly usable work with reason and autonomy and are the only way you develop seniors. As it stands LLM do nothing with autonomy and do much of the work they do wrong. Even with improvements they will in near term actually be a coworker. They remain something you a skilled person actually use like a wrench. In the hands of someone who knows nothing they are worth nothing. Thinking this will replace a segment of workers of any stripe is just wrong.
I wrote a comment about this several months ago on my old kbin.social account. That site is gone and I can’t seem to get a link to it, so I’m just going to repost it here since I feel it’s relevant. My kbin client doesn’t let me copy text posts directly, so I’ve had to use the Select feature of the android app switcher. Unfortunately, the comment didn’t emerge unscathed, and I lack the mental energy to fix it due to covid brain fog (EDIT: it appears that many uses of
Iwere not preserved). The context of the old post was about layoffs, and it can be found here: https://kbin.earth/m/asklemmy@lemmy.ml/t/12147I want to offer my perspective on the Al thing from the point of view of a senior individual contributor at a larger company. Management loves the idea, but there will be a lot of developers fixing auto-generated code full of bad practices and mysterious bugs at any company that tries to lean on it instead of good devs. A large language model has no concept of good or bad, and it has no logic. happily generate string- templated SQL queries that are ripe for SQL injection. I’ve had to fix this myself. Things get even worse when you have to deal with a shit language like Bash that is absolutely full of God awful footguns. Sometimes you have to use that wretched piece of trash language, and the scripts generated are horrific. Remember that time when Steam on Linux was effectively running rm -rf /* on people’s systems? I’ve had to fix that same type of issue multiple times at my workplace.
I think LLMs will genuinely transform parts of the software industry, but I absolutely do not think they’re going to stand in for competent developers in the near future. Maybe they can help junior developers who don’t have a good grasp on syntax and patterns and such. I’ve personally felt no need to use them, since spend about 95% of my time on architecture, testing, and documentation.
Now, do the higher-ups think the way that do? Absolutely not. I’ve had senior management ask me about how I’m using Al tooling, and they always seem so disappointed when I explain why I personally don’t feel the need for it and what feel its weaknesses are. Bossman sees it as a way to magically multiply IC efficiency for nothing, so absolutely agree that it’s likely playing a part in at least some of these layoffs.
Basically, I think LLMs can be helpful for some folks, but my experience is that the use of LLMs by junior developers absolutely increases the workload of senior developers. Senior developers using LLMs can experience a productivity bump, but only if they’re very critical of the output generated by the model. I am personally much faster just relying on traditional IDE auto complete, since I don’t have to change from “I’m writing code” mode to “I’m reviewing code mode.”
The one colleague using AI at my company produced (CUDA) code with lots of memory leaks that required two expert developers to fix. LLMs produce code based on vibes instead of following language syntax and proper coding practices. Maybe that would be ok in a more forgiving high level language, but I don’t trust them at all for low level languages.
I was trying to use it to write a program in python for this macropad I bought and I have yet to get anything usable out of it. It got me closer than I would have been by myself and I don’t have a ton of coding experience so it’s problems are probably partially on me but everything it’s given me has required me to correct it to work.
Will there even be a path for junior level developers?
The same one they have now, perhaps with a steeper learning curve. The market for software developers is already saturated with disillusioned junior devs who attended a boot camp with promises of 6 figure salaries. Some of them did really well, but many others ran headlong into the fact that it takes a lot more passion than a boot camp to stand out as a junior dev.
From what I understand, it’s rough out there for junior devs in certain sectors.
The problem with this take is the assertion that LLMs are going to take the place of secretaries in your analogy. The reality is that replacing junior devs with LLMs is like replacing secretaries with a network of typewriter monkeys who throw sheets of paper at a drunk MBA who decides what gets faxed.
I’m saying that devs will use LLM’s in the same way they currently use word processing to send emails instead of handing hand written notes to a secretary to format, grammar/spell check, and type.
Good take
AI as a general concept probably will at some point. But LLMs have all but reached the end of the line and they’re not nearly smart enough.
“at some point” being like 400 years in the future? Sure.
Ok that’s probably a little bit of an exaggeration. 250 years.
LLMs have already reached the end of the line 🤔
I don’t believe that. At least from an implementation perspective we’re extremely early on, and I don’t see why the tech itself can’t be improved either.
Maybe it’s current iteration has hit a wall, but I don’t think anyone can really say what the future holds for it.
I’m not trained in formal computer science, so I’m unable to evaluate the quality of this paper’s argument, but there’s a preprint out that claims to prove that current computing architectures will never be able to advance to AGI, and that rather than accelerating, improvements are only going to slow down due to the exponential increase in resources necessary for any incremental advancements (because it’s an NP-hard problem). That doesn’t prove LLMs are end of the line, but it does suggest that additional improvements are likely to be marginal.
LLMs have been around since roughly 2016. While scaling the up has improved their performance/capabilities, there are fundamental limitations on the actual approach. Behind the scenes, LLMs (even multimodal ones like gpt4) are trying to predict what is most expected, while that can be powerful it means they can never innovate or be truth systems.
For years we used things like tf-idf to vectorize words, then embeddings, now transformers (supped up embeddings). Each approach has it limits, LLMs are no different. The results we see now are surprisingly good, but don’t overcome the baseline limitations in the underlying model.
The “Attention Is All You Need” paper that birthed modern AI came out in 2017. Before Transformers, “LLMs” were pretty much just Markov chains and statistical language models.
You’re right, I thought that paper came out in 2016.
we’re extremely early on
Oh really! The analysis has been established since the 80’s. Its so far from early on that statement is comical
Transformers, the foundation of modern “AI”, was proposed in 2017. Whatever we called “AI” and “Machine Learning” before that was mostly convolutional networks inspired by the 80’s “Neocognitron”, which is nowhere near as impressive.
The most advanced thing a Convolutional network ever accomplished was DeepDream, and visual Generative AI has skyrocketed in the 10 years since then. Anyone looking at this situation who believes that we have hit bedrock is delusional.
From DeepDream to Midjourney in 10 years is incredible. The next 10 years are going to be very weird.
I don’t know if you noticed but most of the people making decisions in the industry aren’t programmers, they’re MBAs.
Irrelevant, anyone who tries to replace their devs with LLMs will crash and burn. The lessons will be learned. But yes, many executives will make stupid ass decisions around this tech.
It’s really sad how even techheads ignore how rapidly LLM coding has come in the last 3 years and what that means in the long run.
Just look how rapidly voice recognition developed once Google started exploiting all of its users’ voice to text data. There was a point that industry experts stated ‘There will never be a general voice recognition system that is 90%+ across all languages and dialects.’ And google made one within 4 years.
The natural bounty of a no-salary programmer in a box is too great for this to ever stop being developed, and the people with the money only want more money, and not paying devs is something they’ve wanted since the coding industry literally started.
Yes its terrible now, but it is also in its infancy, like voice recognition in the late 90s it is a novelty with many hiccoughs. That won’t be the case for long and anyone who confidently thinks it can’t ever happen will be left without recourse when it does.
But that’s not even the worst part about all of this but I’m not going into black box code because all of you just argue stupid points when I do but just so you know, human programming will be a thing of the past outside of hobbyists and ultra secure systems within 20 years.
Maybe sooner
Maybe in 20 years. Maybe. But this article is quoting CEOs saying 2 years, which is bullshit.
I think it’s just as likely that in 20 years they’ll be crying because they scared enough people away from the career that there aren’t enough developers, when the magic GenAI that can write all code still doesn’t exist.
yeah 2 years is bullshit but with innovation, 10 years is still reasonable and fucking terrifying.
The one thing that LLMs have done for me is to make summarizing and correlating data in documents really easy. Take 20 docs of notes about a project and have it summarize where they are at so I can get up to speed quickly. Works surprisingly well. I haven’t had luck with code requests.
That’s not what was said. He specifically said coding.
Wrong, this is also exactly what people selling LLMs to people who can’t code would say.
It’s this. When boards and non-tech savvy managers start making decisions based on a slick slide deck and a few visuals, enough will bite that people will be laid off. It’s already happening.
There may be a reckoning after, but wall street likes it when you cut too deep and then bounce back to the “right” (lower) headcount. Even if you’ve broken the company and they just don’t see the glide path.
It’s gonna happen. I hope it’s rare. I’d argue it’s already happening, but I doubt enough people see it underpinning recent lay offs (yet).
A company I used to work for outsourced most of their coding to a company in India. I say most because when the code came back the internal teams anways had to put a bunch of work in to fix it and integrate it with existing systems. I imagine that, if anything, LLMs will just take the place of that overseas coding farm. The code they spit out will still need to be fixed and modified so it works with your existing systems and that work is going to require programmers.
So instead of spending 1 day writing good code, we’ll be spending a week debugging shitty code. Great.
