As someone who used to visit incel communities (though I never supported the misogynist views), I think a lot of the appeal comes from the fact that they seem to be the only support groups for lonely men. Why aren’t there any non-toxic ones?
The preferred alternative is a healthy relationship after enough therapy, the latter being a [pay]wall for some
Few exist, but they do exist.
The issue is that many times in the past when men have tried to creat men only groups, they get called sexist and forced to open the group.
Men aren’t allowed to discuss their issues (men’s rights discussion is seen as hate), they aren’t allowed to discuss that they aren’t allowed to discuss men’s issues ( this is seen as hate ). Because men are seen as privileged.
I fully expect hate for this comment and I won’t engage.
The biggest reason support groups for men aren’t well supported, is due to men enforcing the ideas of stoic machismo onto men. This leads to numerous things, one is a lack of support for men who are struggling, failing, lonely, whatever. Men aren’t allowed to discuss their feelings because men have created a society that looks at them as losers for doing so. This is, very slowly, changing though.
The problem with a lot of men’s right advocacy is that is really does end up being misogynist. Most men’s right spaces I have encountered want to blame women for being lonely, for failing to make a family, etc. Meanwhile it is men that have had the primary hand in create society, and it has been that way for thousands of years. We can’t really affect change if we don’t recognize that this is a bed that we made. If we are not happy lying in it, then we need to change, not women. I am also saying not saying women are just perfectly fine. Clearly everyone can have serious negative issues due to life. However, as it stands, the problems we believe are brought on by society, are the constructs of men.
We can’t really affect change if we don’t recognize that this is a bed that we made.
The problem is the men that are struggling generally aren’t the same men that made the bed.
Obviously, however that doesn’t make it not a problem with men. We still need a collective introspection, and course correction.
How do you propose we bring this change about about? The one’s who need to do it have no incentive. The rest of us can sit and think about things and blame ourselves for being men all we want but it won’t change anything. I can encourage and support my peers all day long but it won’t help them be more successful in life or get women to like them romantically because I have no social capital either.
You have to blame the men in charge, but also yourself, your upbringing, and realize you need to work on personal betterment just as much as trying to help other men. Real help, not just creating safe spaces to bitch about chads, and hate on women. Simply creating a place to support men, with actual counseling in mind, that diverts from just blaming women, will actually make things better, demographically. This social capital idea you have isn’t the all encompassing thing you think it is. I have seen very meh looking men, who were fucking homeless, and jobless, in relationships with women. Having support groups, that are just not echo chambers of hate, and instead are implementing counseling methods, that certified people use, that you have researched yourself (do not call yourself a councilor, or claim any professional expertise, diagnosis, etc. just offer as help, man to man, with the increased knowledge) will, broadly, increase other men’s sense of self. This will increase their personal confidence. This will lead to personal betterment. Then you push to branch out.
The idea that men need serious fucking help is already out there. Has been for a good while. It is slowly manifesting into society being more accepting of seeking mental health care, men processing their emotions, etc. Like I said, it is slow, but it is happening. If you are so inclined, do real research into the problems men face in society, like academic research, there is a lot out there to read through, and write a book. Maybe start a podcast, or YT channel. Sure you might not get anywere, but you got stuff out there, in the collective space, for others to see. Which is orders of magnitude more than any MRA, redpill, or incel community has done. Those communities just make the situation worse. They blame women, and even when they discuss men in power enforcing this, they just go “well this is a monumental task to change. Instead I will just stew, in this toxic echo chamber.” While they are just making people advocating for reform for the betterment of men look bad. Look for people who want to publicly advocate reform. From the soap box, and maybe, eventually, to the larger public domain.
I do work on personal betterment quite a lot and encourage my peers to do so. As for the rest of it, how can I start a support group or YouTube channel if no one gives a shit about me or what I have to say? No one with the power to actually make changes will listen to me. The rest already know change needs to happen but can’t do anything either so it would just turn into another echo chamber. Yes, a more positive one but still an echo chamber.
And women spaces are allowed to blame men but they dont get closed
Yes, there are instances where men’s support groups have shut down, due to misogyny, and there are women’s support groups that did not, despite being misandrists. Guess who is the primary factor in the creation of this society in which this happens?
It’s leftist groups that shut them down. Not defending the right, but that is what it is.
Can you give me specific instances so that I may scrutinize the situations?
Mens shelters for one. They got shut down for being anti feminist in my country at least. Shut down is kind of the wrong term. Maybe pushed out or gate kept? Please don’t think this me trying to get out of the conversation I just don’t have the words to describe my views. And I am exhausted from arguing with Republicans kn Facebook
You missed it lol
(emphasis added)
Men aren’t allowed to discuss their feelings because men have created a society that looks at them as losers for doing so.
The implication here, that societal norms are created and maintained by only men, and therefore any aspects of it that affect men negatively deserve to be blamed on them, is one of the most pervasive anti-male sentiments that people try to fly under the radar with. Women have at least as much (arguably more) influence on societal norms and conventions, as men do.
This entire comment is teeming with this undertone; that is, until the end, when they come out and just say ‘all the bad stuff is men’s fault’ at the end, lol.
I didn’t say only by men, there is more comments for context to that statement you are leaving out, I said men have had most of the control through out history, so they have, by far, the greatest influence
Racism and bigotry aren’t logical positions, but emotional ones. People have an emotional need to be part of a group and feel included. If the group a person joins is antagonistic towards other groups then the person will internalize that and become bigoted. The dislike of other groups becomes a part of their identity and belonging.
The documentary Behind The Curve illustrates this pretty effectively. They follow some flat eathers around and interview them and they all say the same thing. They love being a part of the group. They didn’t have a group before and now they do. Their beliefs keep the group together and they’re not going to get rid of them just because the beliefs can be proven to be wrong.
The desire to be a part of a group is strong enough that people will believe anything as long as it gets them some friends. There isn’t anything wrong with that unless the beliefs of the group are harmful and hateful.
Remember that racial segregation in the US wasn’t that long ago, historically speaking.
Some of children who lived through that era were raised with racism and these values were passed to their children who became Gen X and Y.
Religion also had a bigger influence in the previous generations. Homophobia and transphobia was normalized and you could even be arrested for being any of LGBTQ up until very recently and it’s still the case in some regions.
Nazi ideology never really left either. And the way this ideology came to be was through disenfranchised people who were angry and needed someone to be angry against. Someone came at the right place at the right time and gave these people a scapegoat.
Fascism is kind of the same but with a cult of personality.
The core of the issue is the “Just World Fallacy” sometimes also called the “Prosperity Doctrine” and a few other things. It boils down to one core idea “Good things happen to good people, and bad things happen to bad people.” Basically, everyone tends to think of themselves as, more-or-less, good people. So when bad things happen, as they inevitably do, these people start going “Huh, more bad stuff is happening to me than I’ve done bad things. WTF?” So, they come to a reasonable if flawed conclusion that “someone ELSE is doing bad things, and I’m collateral damage.” This isn’t entirely wrong, although sometimes bad things do just happen. However, since at least as far back as the Civil War (and probably since time immemorial), the people whose fault it REALLY is (i.e., the people with power and privelege) have pointed at outgroups, commonly immigrants but also slaves or Catholics or trans people, and said “THOSE people are being bad. THOSE people are why you are suffering. Give me more power and I’ll get rid of THOSE people.”
Wow, well said and succinct, much love.
during gamergate i started going down the alt right rabbithole (at some point i stopped when i realized this was associated with out right nazi shit and re-evaluated my beliefs)
I was one of those “i am very smart” people as a teenager but I’m actually an idiot I was also a pick me (I am a woman). I found those video clips of feminists everyone was sharing at that time and became convinced that feminist = man hater it can be easy for people to twist fringe beliefs from a group and present that as common among that group. Due to this and me being a lazy idiot who didn’t fact check because I thought I was to smart to be mislead I went further down the rabbithole
I also blame poor us education on civil rights issues my state (new mexico) is on the bottom of the list for education i think it was around 49th at the time I was in school they presented civil rights issues as if they were solved so i thought “these sjws don’t want equality they want women/minority superiority” I thought they wanted to oppress the previously oppressive groups as revenge not realizing that civil rights issues have not been solved that we haven’t attained equality even though the law was supposedly equal.
I believed in equality but it got twisted by fascist lies into opposing actual progress and equality.
I can see how people went further down the rabbit hole one of the things these videos talked about was how the crime rate was higher for black people and that’s why there is more police brutality against black people. I can see how someone could take this information out of context and start thinking that black people were more crime prone inherently and that’s where some of these people took it.
ignorance is one of the biggest causes of prejudice.
I thought they wanted to oppress the previously oppressive groups as revenge
I think the origin of this is it’s what certain people think and they try to push out into the system.
Essentially, those certain people want to enslave and dominate others. That’s how their brain works. So they project that’s what others want to do to them. They can’t mentally process that people want actual freedom and equality for everyone.
Yes, that’s how their brains work! Not so much a moral failing, they’re wired different. Hard to get your own wiring around that.
I often see this in the idea of life being a zero-sum game. If someone gets a thing, that thing was taken from someone else. If blacks and gays get rights, my rights were taken!
See all the complaints that gay marriage diminished hetero marriage. Illogical and incomprehensible as it seems, keep in mind the zero-sum thinking and it makes far more sense.
In my case I thought that we already had equality so anybody asking for more or complaining wanted special privileges and therefore they were trying to ruin that because they wanted to be the oppressor. In my twisted mindset I thought I was on the side of equality.
though I do definitely think there are some people who follow the mindset in your comment.
I think that’s an understandable thought because they try to whitewash history. Once you whitewash history, it’s easy to convince people that a) it’s their own fault / pull yourself up by your bootstraps, or b) they want special privileges or treatment.
Reminds me of this https://youtu.be/Ot_MO0-oZdc
What is a “pick me?”
“I’m one of the good ones! I’m on your team!” Kinda like how many of us view blacks and gays who support conservative politicians.
I overheard my kids talking about whites being replaced, and saying the big N word. YouTube and the internet in general is a great recruitment tool. Yes, I talked to them.
For the nazis, a big problem is the alt-right pipeline that plagues sites like Youtube, along with an unstable political climate, which generally causes radicalization (Weimer Germany is also a very good example of this phemona)
As for incels, a big problem is admittably a mental health crisis plauging many men, generally causing them to become resentful of women out of loneliness.
TLDR: Poor mental health and instability
Yeah the Internet is full of traps that are engineered to draw men in. There’s blood on Google’s hands for just letting that happen. (And probably other companies too, but YouTube is big)
Related note: unchecked capitalism makes everything worse. Trying to get dates and the apps are just like “pay us $5 and maybe we’ll show your profile to someone. Be a shame if your beautiful profile just never showed up for anyone.”
Ahhh, your almost there at realizing that capitalism commodified dating and is basically predatory against single men.
unchecked capitalism makes everything worse.
Both in the context of this discussion and in society in general.
The latter is aided by the same things as the former. Too many youtubers condition young men to think that women are the problem and the fact that they don’t take care of themselves or socialize with others doesn’t matter and it’s really the fault of everyone else. I used to online game with a couple of these guys who weren’t too bad until recently. They were both basically shut-ins who still somehow held strong beliefs about the outside world and why things are the way they are even though they didn’t really participate with the outside world.
YouTube but also porn. As it’s much less regulated in terms of tone and content, you get a lot of casual racism, misogyny and similar just thrown into the videos of pene and vagene
Tiny peepee
Some people have problems in their life and it is convenient to believe they are do to an outgroup. You mention knowledge against it but these people live their lives and insert their instilled prejudices to explain the flaws, making them have (fake) first hand proof of their beliefs.
Ok while I may agree. But my father taught me when I was younger that a black woman has no place in this world so you will have to work extra harder to overcome hate and other things…my question is was he right? I say this as a now 41 year old.
a black woman has no place in this world…
Wrong on this half, in that the factors of your birth & immutable traits or public opinion of those can’t prevent you from have a place here regardless of any opinions.
…you will have to work extra harder to overcome hate and other things…
You would know the answer from you past 41 yrs better than I would.
Bigotry has been about ignorance. It has always been about manufacturing social division through propaganda.
I know some people are born into these mindsets. I know what it’s like to have been raised by a bigot; indoctrinated thoughts are the hardest to change.
I am convinced a large part of the problem is some people prefer convenient answers which make immediate sense, as opposed to nuanced truths.
Could it be that racism creates conditions which lead to a higher frequency of situations which will reinforce racist stereotypes? Too much thinking involved, it makes more sense that the blacks are inherently different.
You should do an AMA it would be nice to hear about your exp growing up like that and how you changed your life.
Unfortunately my experience is nothing short of common. Our current generation is the most tolerant in history, so naturally our parents will hold bigoted opinions.
If you want to hear a fascinating story, listen to Megan, who left the “God hates fags” church, and now tries to explain indoctrination.
Could it be that racism creates conditions which lead to a higher frequency of situations which will reinforce racist stereotypes? Too much thinking involved, it makes more sense that the blacks are inherently different.
I have struggled to communicate what you said in your first sentence in less than paragraphs several times and failed. Thank you for giving me an example of how to say it succinctly. Let’s hope I can remember/replicate that the next time I try to get the concept across to someone.
Ok, so this is my time to admit my very shameful past. I used to be racist, homophobic, and sexist(known as the big 3). I used my religion as an excuse for the sexism and homophobia and my father(my mom isnt racist and they are divorced) and dam near everyone on his side of the family is racist so I just grew up in that culture. Once I stopped talking to him and met a lot of people from other races, i learned we are all the same. Then I stated reading the Bible, and once I did that, I obviously couldn’t continue believing it.
So basically, it’s willful ignorance, and it is always easier to blame others for your own downfalls and it makes you feel better about your own shitty life if you can hate on someone else.
I’m so glad you were able to see the light and thank you for having the courage to put it out there for others to see.
The most difficult faults to see and change are our own.
Good for you.
I dunno it just made me think of that.
I used my religion as an excuse for the sexism and homophobia
I’m my experience that is extremely common.
Then I stated reading the Bible, and once I did that, I obviously couldn’t continue believing it.
Yeah nothing obvious about that. Your religion is idiotic, all religions are lies made up by con artists or crazy people. You cant be trusted if you need some book assembled over a 600 year period, edited and abused by religious leaders to control and manipulate the masses into maintaining and increasing their own powerbase.
Religion is just the old world version of todays billionaires
Couldn’t agree more. Fuck a safe space for insane blatherskite.
“willful ignorance” lol
Like I don’t wanna beat up on the guy but… fuckin hell.
Im glad they are a better person than they used to be, but that particular sentence made me laugh out loud
Question: does that sentence lead one to believe that reading the Bible made me think the Bible is against sexism and homophobia or does it lead you to believe that I am no longer religious because I read the bible?
Ya, I was willfully ignorant for a while in my life, and then I started to actually practice critical thinking and developing a sound epistemology. I admitted I was wrong and took steps to change that. So what exactly is there to beat up on me about?
This is my story too. Leaving Christianity behind has been an amazing and humbling experience.
I can honestly say looking back idk if I ever really believed in it. I think I was just using it as an excuse to hate people while feeling morally superior.
I think that’s a lot of people in it. Moral superiority feels really good and hating others is a convenient way to avoid dealing with however you feel about yourself
I definitely did, and thats what made leaving so hard. I trusted the people around me, and they were telling me all kinds of things, so of course it is true. The indoctrination starts before critical thinking develops, so its just built into the firmware of your brain, you know?
This video is actually shockingly relevant right now, and does go through (some of) the ‘hows’ and ‘whys’.
Remember that tradwife/incel/etc shit is all just fascism boiled down into specifics. The Nazi’s sent women who wouldn’t marry to camps just as easily as Jewish people, gypsies, etc. We think of the Fascist movement as specifically anti-Jewish people, maybe throw in some gay people/etc, but Unionists, Communists, Socialists, and Women were targeted as well.
The reason it works is because it offers easy answers, and the average person has been made to be so lazy they’ll accept what they’re told, especially if they’re told everyone else is doing it. They aren’t a Nazi, they’re part of the Nazi’s.
We also have a huge backlog of emotional baggage for men post the 1980’s. At some point we all accepted that men wouldn’t show any emotions except anger, rage, frustration, etc, and then kept doubling down on it. Now you have groups of young men fed directly into a pipeline of Facebook/Youtube/whatever platform that spoon feeds them fascist garbage. Why? Because it makes them tame and easier to control. You notice fascists aren’t out there killing rich people, they’re killing minorities? That’s by design, because the wealthy know they’re fucked if young men turn that rage against them, the real perpetrators of said poor people’s suffering.
The wealthy love fascism, it gives them everything they want. They don’t see the poor people below them as human, so it’s all just a giant menagerie to them so they can have their Line Go Up Faster than the other rich people.
Watched five minutes of it and bookmarked it. Thanks for the link
that YT link doesn’t need anything after the and-sign. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGAqYNFQdZ4
Removed everything after the ampersand, thank you. O7
Nazis and incels need to be dealt with, yes, but the important thing to keep in mind is they are symptomatic of suffering swaths of the population. People don’t just do hate because it’s fun.
We let big businesses and the rich steamroll entire communities and industries, pay lip service to helping people who’ve been damaged by capitalism, and then after the election cycles are over leave their communities to rot. They are desperate and turn to the wrong answers because there aren’t any others.
We allow entertainment and advertising to blast our society with a particular view of what relationship “success” is, and accept mockery of those who cannot thrive in that narrow definition due to social anxiety or other mental issues as fair game. Those men are desperate and turn to the wrong answers because there aren’t any others.
Yes, Nazis and incels are absolutely awful, hateful problems that must be dealt with. And by the time they reach that point, I’d argue they probably can’t be saved. But they don’t fall out of the sky. They come from normal people whose cries for help went unheard, sometimes for decades, or generations. They’re the product of systemic injustices that we can mitigate with outreach programs and getting serious about mitigating the social problems that create the soil they spring from. Stopping them is a necessary band-aid, but the real solution is to address the situations that allow them to thrive in the first place.
symptomatic
Still reading your post and came across the word symptomatic being used correctly and if I had a hat I would either tip it to you or say my hats off to you…no sarcasm.
if I had a hat I would either tip it to you or say my hats off to you
Hat inequity… yet another social ill we need to address.
Blaming others for things going wrong doesn’t require thinking and being self reflecting.
