TL;DR
- Efforts like Graphene OS face increasing pressure from apps that refuse to run on non-standard Android.
- The custom ROM project characterizes Google’s approach to device attestation as incomplete and flawed.
- Graphene OS is prepared to take legal action if Google won’t let it pass Play Integrity checks.
I have a still very capable for my needs “once flagship” stock Samsung phone that is now about 7 years old. I still have a good 2-5 years use with this thing based on hardware performance alone. Google and others have started to conspire to make “1000 cuts” with artificial app compatibility “issues” and the like that try to force my hand to upgrade HW. Most would buy a new phone, but this will inspire me to dig back into the custom Rom flashing of my youth, to get the next 2-5 years I’m deserved from this hardware.
Thank you to all the hardworking people that drive the ROM community to this day.
Hell yes.
It’s fucking open source, this is no different from games with intrusive anti-cheat refusing to run on Linux, except it this case it’s not even a different OS.
It’s monopolistic and anti-user.
Ironically, if Graphene would succeed, it would lead to a system that’s every bit as locked down as a manufacturer’s Android. GrapheneOS would also not allow you to have root etc.
IMO Graphene wants a place at the big player table. They’re not in it for user freedoms.
A manufacturer’s Android can have special privileges for their own apps, and almost will certainly have special privileges for Google’s apps.
Graphene by default wouldn’t give special privileges to any app, so that’s at least a plus.
It’s true that it would be locked down, but you at least have a couple more controls over how locked down compared to a manufacturer’s OS.
Considering the lawsuits, now seems like a good time.
Wow, I legit just ordered a used pixel yesterday to give graphene a try lol. Uncanny timing!
Anyhow, that’s great news! I can really see the EU sinking its teeth into this if nothing else.
Enjoy! For future reference I’d recommend just getting the latest Pixel as you’ll get the longest software support. E.g. a Pixel 8a is supported till May 2031, which is plenty of time to get a lot of usage out of your phone.
At the price of the Pixel 8a, I would suggest getting the Pixel 8 instead.
Personally I’m fine with 8as’ specs and don’t need any of the extra features of the Pixel 8 so I’d prefer to save the money and get an 8a. Plus 8as are supported for longer. Nothing wrong with getting an 8 instead if that’s what you want though
Right, I’d love to spring up for a 8th gen pixel but I live in an unsupported region and my currency is worth fuck all so I’ll have to make do with a secondhand 7 pro lol. Still fantastic longevity all things considered.
I’ll have to make do with a secondhand 7 pro
Ouch, that hits me right in the 7Pro feels lol. Make do, indeed, lolol.
Honestly, I don’t really need my phone for much so as long as the battery hasn’t degraded too much I’ll be more than happy!
I’m holding out for the 10. The 8 added mirrored display (so you can mirror your screen on a monitor… I’d rather this come with the Pixel Tablet 2 and the Pixel Tablet skipped it form some reason) and MTE, which GrapheneOS says is the most significant addition to security since they’ve started the OS. If those come with the 10, not to mention the 10 is supposed to have Google’s inhouse chip and not Samsung’s…yep, I’m upgrading.
Thankfully there are FOSS alternatives for apps like Authy. I recommend Aegis
For your banking app, you can use this list to check if it’s compatible: https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compatibility-with-grapheneos/
Using the web app might also be an option.
Thanks for the tips, I’m a happy Aegis user already! Thankfully, my main bank explicitly doesn’t care about custom roms and I’m thinking I’ll just cut ties with the ones who do and let them know that was the reason at this point. Worst case scenario, I still have my locked down old phone.
I would totally buy a Pixel too but apparently most Pixels here are black market and the IMEIs are banned so I don’t wanna risk getting one that can’t connect to cell networks
Oof that’s scary. Good thing I have a decent enough return window to at least make sure stuff like that isn’t the case, at least.
Welcome! I’ve been on it for a month or so and I’m still so thrilled
I plan on doing the same thing, any tips on finding cheap recent-ish Pixels?
The Pixel 6a is really cheap on the used market, and it still gets updates for at least 3 years.
The 7a isn’t that expensive either. I recommend staying away from Fairphones, Murena or /e/OS as these are highly insecure, and the companies behind them have repeatedly proven that they don’t give even the slightest fuck about the security of their users. They don’t publish important Android security patches on time, and Fairphone even managed to fully break Android Verified Boot, by signing their ROM with the publicly available (!!!) AOSP test signing keys. It should have been impossible to pass verification, but the vendor conducting the verification seems to be just as incompetent.
A used Pixel with GrapheneOS is your best option, while still being affordable.
A brand new Murena Fairphone 4 (North America) is about $600 brand new, IIRC. I’ve been on one for the last 6 months and it’s excellent.
Stay away from both Fairphone and /e/OS/Murena. Fairphone fails hardware security in the most miserable way, and fundamentally breaks Android Verified Boot, while /e/OS is based on the highly insecure LineageOS, and it further rolls back security, while also repeatedly missing important security patches.
Also, 600 dollars is absolutely not cheap for a smartphone, and it’s especially not with it considering that both the hardware and software are highly insecure.
A Pixel can be purchased for much less, while being superior in every way.
Lineage OS is highly insecure ?
Yes, it is much worse than stock Android
https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/android.html#lineageos
Thanks, I’ll check it out. I’ve installed lineage since it was Cyanogenmod on secondary devices for years. I dedicate them for audiobook playback and music playback. I’ll look in to it.
That kind of usage should be fine, it doesn’t really matter. Just wouldn’t use it for my primary mobile device.
I’m planning on flashing my One Plus 9 Pro with Murena’s ROM. I’m working on getting de-googlefied.
Perhaps consider DivestOS as well if it’s supported, seems to be a way tidier package when it comes to security and privacy.
Thanks for the recommendation!
I’m in an unsupported region so I’m afraid I can’t help much :(
In my case I just looked around a local eBay-like site and went with a reputable enough seller, fairly standard procedure there.
Where I am, Pixels are not sold officially either. I got a 7a for around $300. I picked a store with a physical office and made an order not through the site, but through said office. And at least could inspect the phone before buying.
Ah, that’s a nice way to go about it! I’d have loved to inspect mine beforehand as well but the only real way to grab one around here is importing yourself and paying 60%+ import fees on the damn thing or purchasing a preowned one. My living in a remote area also means there are none close by.
I’ve been using graphene for years at this point and it’s the best operating system I’ve ever had on a phone. Before this my favorite phone was a jail broken iPhone 5c. I even got a pixel tablet to take notes on for college recently and put graphene on it as well.
Only thing Google has right atm is leaving the bootloader on their phones unlockable.
Why does this call the problem by it’s name, monopoly.
Android is another area Google are abusing their monopoly. Sure the phone market is a duopoly, but that doesn’t help. Apple is even more locked down and user abusing.
Lots of app companies, like bank apps, think locking their apps to only work on official Android is best for security, but that compounds the monopoly. It’s also arguably less secure!
I don’t even understand. Am I getting this wrong?? Does the payment processing happen inside the banking app?! Because if so, that’s the bigger problem isn’t it? All the checks for correctness should happen on the servers that the banking app connects to, not the banking app itself. If that’s already the case, then what are they worried about? I’m probably missing something here, but honestly I just don’t understand why they would do that.
The app will almost certainly mostly be just wrapping a web interface. But this dedicated browser can provide the site with all the access of an app. The idea will be only this browser can be trusted to access this site and can check the run environment before connects. I’m they’d do the same on the desktop, if they thought it would be swallowed.
the only reason I’ve wanted to be rooted in recent years is when I didn’t have hotspot on my plan and the most complete way around that was with root.
I think I would like a degoogled Lineage/Graphene OS though
Wtf, plans locking down device features. That’s mindblowing.
Why is stuff like that included not included in every plan by default? As a European, I can’t even imagine paying extra for that. If I want to hotspot my data, my operator can kiss my ass and simply allow it, I’m paying for the data anyway.
for this case it was a plan that’s pretty discounted and also unlimited without hard throttle. they don’t want people using it on computers or game consoles probably
As Kevnyon@lemmy.world said: @NetworkOperator: Kiss my ass. I pay your for service. You wanna restrict me, I switch my damn plan. If I use it on my phone streaming 4K stuff from my home server or watch 1GB of data over hot spot on my phone is not their business.
In less free countries the provider also provides the handset and locks it all down.
Really the only thing holding me back from switching to GrapheneOS is that some of my apps fail CTS.
If a proper pathway is defined for custom ROMs I’d switch in a heartbeat.
Hoping this initiative leads to a reasonable outcome.
yeah. like my manufacturers’ 3-year-old, full-o-spyware ROM is more secure than latest lineage.
they just want control, not security.
I have been using stock for a while, but I remember using magisk root to hide root to the bank app and I never had an issue
i do that but sadly it aint working anymore. they implemented a new google sanctioned way of blocking it that hasnt been cracked yet.
same bs with apps not running jidt because root or apps not being visible in playstore because of it. Netflix isn’t even showing up as existing in playstore just because i have root. it’s nuts. and there are tons of apps like this.
Netflix and their DRM is so extremely stupid it’s incomprehensible. It only hurts normal users while the rippers have no issues getting the content.
You can fix most apps with the Play Integrity Fix module and denylist. You might have to hide the magisk app too. It doesn’t get 100% of them though, I still can’t figure out how my bank app is catching it. Plus I’ve had RCS stop working with that setup, so I have to keep it disabled to avoid missing messages
The apple music app checks for a specific binary. Could be something like that.
What’s changed to make banking apps more necessary?
you cant use banks without at least their 2fa app on your phone
Ohh wow that’s wild
Thanks for the answer
Myself, I use my bank’s web portal via my mobile browser. Not as instant as an app, but it gets the job done.
Culprit is: I need the phones app as second factor to log in to the web interface.
I’d just leave for a different bank at that point, although I get that it’s not always practical.
Yep been seeing more of that. Will just refuse to use it on my phone.
It’s been clear for at least 10 years that apps are about data harvesting not making something more useful or easier to use or more universal than a mobile website.
AFAIK that’s the way it has to be done in the EU…
graphene sandboxes Google services so they don’t run as root on your device. I haven’t encountered an app I can’t get running on graphene yet and having Google play installed as non root is a far sight better than stock.
my biggest problem with lineage was compatibility with banking apps so I reluctantly switched but graphene is a solid choice in operating system for privacy and security.
Graphene is great, but I’m currently on a Xiaomi phone so I can’t run most ROMs, I’ll likely run derpfest when I get the bootloader unlocked
that’s one I haven’t heard of. how is it functionally?
I haven’t tried it yet, but it seems to have a lot of pixel features ported, I realized crDroid supports my phone so I might try that
does it hide root/custom roms?
if so im interested.
not really. after enabling oem unlocking in developer options you just boot it while holding one of the volume buttons and you’re able to unlock the bootloader.
root is not typically available and you don’t need it for most uses besides development, but even then, I would recommend not using a phone you daily for that.
sure, but unrooted custom roms also trip the protections.
root can sometimes be used to mask that.
you’re already over my head but you can talk to the devs. they have a matrix chat they link on their site
Second phone just for these things wouldn’t work for what you need?
thats what i do atm, but its a shitty solution when i have a perfectly good phone.
the irony is, my second vanking phone is probably less secure, because its stuck in an ancient version of android.
That’s not exactly a great solution. It works, but it’s a shitty workaround at best.
Not disagreeing I was genuinely asking.
For me it wouldnt be too inconvenient but I barely use banks so my perspective is atypical
Two phones no sweat and no use for banks… Can i get a sack? 🤣
Dont know what you mean sorry
I did pull $600 out my sock at the best buy to buy my pixel recently tho lol
I do basically that, but with aSamsung tablet, then my phone can be for phone things, calls, messages, emails. Then if I’m out and about and need to check my bank, mobile hotspot to my phone and go from there.
Even just being rooted on the stock Pixel rom is a fight. It’s a constant cat and mouse game to pass basic and device integrity, but as of recently a lot of us have been able to pass strong integrity as well which has been nice.
Even just being rooted on the stock Pixel rom is a fight.
That, I can see being more of an issue than an unmodified, trusted 3rd party OS. If I remember right, rooting makes the device fail Verified Boot:
It establishes a full chain of trust, starting from a hardware-protected root of trust to the bootloader, to the boot partition and other verified partitions including system, vendor, and optionally oem partitions.
https://source.android.com/docs/security/features/verifiedboot
Fair point. At least with stock rooted as I said there’s ways around it and I can pass all play integrity checks and such.
I love running a custom ROM, but I’m concerned RCS is going to become a deal break for me :(
I love that text messaging will finally not be complete shit between iOS and Android, but RCS is such a shitty locked down protocol.
but I’m concerned RCS is going to become a deal break for me
For what it’s worth, I have RCS working with GrapheneOS. I don’t think I did anything special, but it did take awhile. I did see stuff on their forum about others having a bigger issue with it, though.
And of course, I prefer Signal, where possible.
Interesting. Do you have Google services installed? I use MicroG, which afaik has no RCS support.
Do you have Google services installed? I use MicroG…
Yes, I have Google Plays Services, Google Services Framework, and the Google Play Store installed, which are all sandboxed. MicroG isn’t supported by GrapheneOS.
Oh interesting, I didn’t know that’s how GrapheneOS handles Google services. I’d love to have working NFC pay and RCS, so I’m going to have to take a look at it. Thanks for sharing!
I’d love to have working NFC pay
NFC works. NFC payment is dependent on the app as some block those that fail Play Integrity / Google certification. Google Wallet / Pay does not work for payment because Google blocks it.
Efforts like Graphene OS face increasing pressure from apps that refuse to run on non-standard Android.
I call those “apps not worth using”
Until the app in question is your banking app
My flamin’ hot take still stands. I don’t see a need for banking apps when there are web browsers, cards, and cash.
You have never bought anything online? Every bank now requires their app to verify online transactions
I have never installed any banking app and I buy stuff online all the time.
I buy things online with my bank and have had to verify 0 transactions.
You’re right on that, but we can’t expect everyone to act the same and ditch such apps all at once. So, it’s very important to point the issue out and take action to stop it.
Even without the custom ROMs, the whole Android ecosystem is a colossal fucking mess.
I’ve got old apps that won’t work any more. It’s not even compatible with itself.
People give Windows a load of shit, and deservedly so for some of it, but it’s a million times more usable than Android when you want shit to “just work”.
I’ve got old apps that won’t work any more.
People give Windows a load of shit… but it’s a million times more usable than Android
Where do you run your old Windows Phone apps nowadays? What about new Windows Phone apps?
On my Windows Phone silly
Ah, memories.
Memories? Pssshhhh, he took that pic an hour ago…
How?!
with a device equipped with a camera of sorts, if I had to guess
Ah shit, here we go again
It still works. Most of the apps are borked. Windows Explorer hasn’t been updated in 5+ years so doesn’t work with most sites. Baconit escaped reddit’s 3rd party app purge and still works. Imgur still works well but with all the genX on it reminds me of icanhazcheezeburger.
Can’t tell if that’s a horrible wallpaper or a totally fucked up screen
It’s a photo from a disused quarry that my granddad used to work in
I see it! That’s pretty cool.
Dude, that’s sick, thank you! I wish I had a better pic to offer but this is the best I can do since Jerboa app is not currently letting me upload pictures in a comment…
🤘🏼
How we all wish there was a third option, I would genuinely take less functionality in favour of privacy and performance. I don’t need AI and fancy image processing. I want to use my phone to pay the old way, like when samsung copied the magnetic strip info, not like now where google gets a copy of my receipts.
Sucks iOS is the alternative, nearly gave in last week but the price was just too much for what I was getting.
Software that is 10 years old and unmaintained is likely unsafe to use and therefore shouldn’t work. Windows has a lot of issues specifically because it’s backward compatible with ancient software, actually. Security and a path forward should matter more than clinging to old software that must stop working someday regardless of how hard you try to delay it. Emulation/VMs are and should be a way to work around that on desktop and it would actually be nice if mobile OSes had that too. That way at least the ancient software can be sandboxed and not a security weakpoint. The right approach though is not to do this horrible patchwork of APIs like windows which creates a security nightmare
I’ve got old apps that won’t work any more.
That’s true for every operating system. Old apps aren’t updated to use new system APIs and such and they eventually stop working.
On desktops we can use virtual environments, translation layers, plenty of solutions to make old programs and games work on a modern OS. Phones are somehow incapable of this.
Yet I can compile applications that work on Windows XP, and they still work under Windows 11.
It’s not as if Android is some svelte slimline OS where every byte matters. There’s plenty of room there for keeping compatibility with older apps.
Dude there’s millions of lines of code and thousands of hours per year that keep old windows shit running. It’s a nightmare to support that. Microsoft has made that a priority and you can easily argue it shouldn’t be, but you seem convinced that’s the only valid path. It’s not.
I’ve got old apps that won’t work any more.
I’m actually for this. The bar to entry for the Play Store is too low with too many low quality and unmaintained apps. I’m all for booting insecure and super old apps. They cheapen the ecosystem.
Well that’s all very well, but I’ve got a bathroom speaker I can no longer access.
So how about instead of Daddy Google deciding what’s best for everyone, they let things run and give you a warning?
Hell, I’ve even got games I’ve paid for that are now gone. Honestly, fuck them for even thinking that’s acceptable.
The problem is allowing the APIs it uses to exist at all in the OS is a huge security hole.
So it’s my choice to run them?
If I can download an APK, I should be able to run it in a “compatibility mode” and have the OS do it’s best to run it.
It can’t.
A compatibility mode would involve meaningful cost, massively compromise security, and not have a chance in hell of working.
They could just spin up a container of some sort. It’s still fundamentally Linux, so it should be possible to run Android inside an lxc container the same way you can run a desktop Linux distro in docker (which is based on the lxc functionality in the Linux kernel)
The point is that you have to emulate a fuckton of low level access to even have a chance of anything working. Either you replace the actual hardware access with junk data, making none of the apps work, or you break the whole permissions structure, and your security is completely gone.
All of those APIs were deprecated because it’s impossible to provide them in any way that resembles security.
So how about instead of Daddy Google deciding what’s best for everyone, they let things run and give you a warning?
That is not what’s happening. It takes tons of work to maintain backward compatibility but you’re framing it as though it doesn’t and they’re just being a holes on purpose.
Why can’t you connect to the speaker with Bluetooth?
It doesn’t allow direct connection. You have to dick about with a stupid app to put it in “speaker mode” first.
Gives me Sonos vibes.
I won a Sonos speaker years ago, thing needed (from memory) an app to switch to AUX mode. The speaker sounded great but I didn’t want to install an app just to use the thing.
In a grand spectacle my ex’s cat kicked a potplant off a windowsill into our fish tank. That shorted a power board, we didn’t have breakers (ceramic / wire fuses) which ended up killing the speaker.
Honestly as nice of a speaker it was, good riddance.
Damn that sucks!!! I wish there was a way to sandbox older apps. I’ve ran into the same issue with old apps before.
You’re really arguing for a covenant around tech that companies want to orphan. The rule needs to be the code is opened and a slacker code owner is appointed for handover.
This is gonna embarrass Google a Lot but it’s gonna embarrass azn and m$ a whole lot more.
The forced alternative is a refund if you can bring something recognizable with a serial number to your post office or something as ubiquitous, present and staffed - have them validate in the loosest fashion and require like 10 bizdays for the cash refund.
Whether or not the post office is there for that or charges the OEM for the notary-light service is a matter for the courts, the USPS, and these days probably the fn SCotUS.
Same, it’s why I never buy a game or app nowadays, they will just stop working when the new OS version comes around, devs already got their money so they don’t have any incentive to care, and contrary to PC I can’t do shit about it myself on my phone, there’s no “androidbox” to run old apps inside my phone.
Same with iOS, I don’t know why you are singling out Android here. My favorite game back when I used an iPad stopped working after certain update. It was a puzzle with rails and colored trains, can’t remember the name now.
Windows and Linux are quite a lot better in this regard.
I suppose you’re talking about a 32-bit app that wasn’t updated for the newer 64-bit architecture. If yes, then there’s actually a technical reason behind it, not just Apple being dicks. Because other than 32-bit apps, every app that received a 64-bit update should still work on the latest iOS.
I’m not singling them out, it just happens to be a thread about Android.
There’s no reason for mobile OS’s to be flaky like this. There’s nothing magic about either that means old stuff can’t be supported. It’s just that trillion dollar corporations apparently can’t afford the resources.
There kind of is, software changes and things need to be updated by comparison, your windows example is a double edged sword, there’s a lot of bloat and Microsoft can’t make changes that might be beneficial on windows because of all the backwards compatability layers and services they generally leave in. It’s good and bad in it’s own way.
I’ve been tired of “modern” security doing nothing but annoy people. Recently, a Portuguese bank “innovated” by exclusively allowing login only on a mobile device. Yes, a clean web browser with 3FA is not “secure” enough, has to be done on a mobile device. Clearly, desktop PCs are too insecure to conduct transactions.
Therefore, because one does not trust their mobile device. One simply spun up a clean Pixel VM, shared my data with Google and just did their work there. Peak security.
They are steamrolling usability for elder people with that kind of security measures. I can’t understand how they can get away with this, those bastards.
Stockpile did this too. I quit them (i did not like them anyway but that was the last straw)
Which one?
The one owned by the state.
I would close my bank account if they did that and move my money to a better bank. I don’t do financial stuff on mobile phones.
Does the bank staff all work on mobiles?
Goddamn technology stealing black jobs
We’ve started the process of talking to regulators and they’re interested.
Oh that’s great, they aren’t actually suing since that would be a pretty big money pit, they are going straight to regulators, something can happen.
FTC act is the most useful against this sort of behavior and only the FTC can file suit for that, not individual companies. I don’t think this could be filed as a violation of the Sherman act. See here for an overview: https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/antitrust-laws
Recently moved to graphene couldn’t be happier
I don’t care about these apps but it will only get worse over time if not addressed. I could see things as simple as Spotify, Netflix, etc. Refusing to run
I don’t use those services either but that’s not a future I want
I could see things as simple as…
Last I heard, the McDonalds’ app doesn’t work, of all things.
https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/9123-the-mcdonalds-app-doesnt-work/
Wow, there you go then.
Literally 1984 (/s)
Can’t even order Donalds from your phone that you bought with your own money anymore 🫡
Neither does the BBC’s couch to 5k app, for who knows what reason.
