In Japan, they have a term Mura Hachibu that apparently signifies when someone is ostracized and shunned from society for doing something really bad and abhorrent. I have never lived in Japan so I only know about it and have heard about it, don’t really know how it works. But in the USA it kind of seems like you can do all sorts of horrible, bad things, and there’s no real societal consequence for it… If you need any evidence of this, just look at Matt Gaetz. People literally hate this guy, in Congress and outside of it. Some people call him a child predator don’t know if it’s actually true or not and honestly don’t care to discuss it here but You would think that people that do terrible, horrible things would get put on a list and that list would be passed around society So people can be actively aware that they should avoid them, and restrict them from participating in society due to their terrible actions…
So why isn’t this ever done in the USA? Has this ever been considered, or is this like not a good thing to do?
Back in the “good” ol days we had exile.
Bring back exile.Perhaps a better question is why aren’t more people shunned. There are some good answers already, but I’ll throw in another reason that seems to come up sometimes.
The US is highly polarized on a lot of issues. If one can frame their shunning as one of those wedge issues, they can probably get enough people to rally around them that they escape accountability.
“I’m being deplatformed because of racism against white people!”
“We have freedom of speech in this country, so if you take everything in the Constitution absolutely literally like I do, it’s obvious I should be able to spew whatever bullshit I want. You don’t hate the Constitution and the founding fathers, do you?”
You mean like how our cults work?
It’s not something you do, it’s something that society is. Japan has a long cultural history of a few things that are absolutely foreign to Western culture (not just the USA, but Canada, Great Britain, Australia, most of western Europe, etc.)
Even in a high-stakes game of consumer-capitalism, Japan has a sense of ethics that just isn’t present elsewhere. A CEO might pull the same shady shit in Japan as they would in the US, but if they’re caught, they still mostly take responsibility - resigning in disgrace, rather than “resigning” to another company with a fat bonus, which is what we see elsewhere. I mean, three years ago McDonalds actually made news for clawing back a $105M severance package from their disgraced ex-CEO, who was having an affair with several of his employees. The fact of the matter is that he initially got the package, no matter what he did.
Likewise, there is an expectation of acceptable behaviour in Japan. There are all sorts of circumstances where a blind eye is turned, but they’re oddly strict - and sketchy behaviour outside of that is considered reprehensible.
So can we? Maybe in theory, but we’d have to revamp our culture - and in a direction opposite to the trajectory it’s currently on.
An important thing to know is that all cultures have practices that involve shunning people, and that they are all applied to people who did nothing wrong and are not applied to people with enough connections or wealth. Some bad things that are almost universally punished but with differences in severity are being pregnant out of wedlock, not being a member of the dominant religion, being LGBTQ+, and speaking against other cultural norms. Exactly who is shunned does vary, but Japan’s is also pretty terribly implemented.
Almost everywhere the main coubter to shunning is connections and/or wealth. Royalty, high level politicians, people like Epstein, etc. are able to get away with stuff until they piss off the wrong people and lose their connections. Some may even make it to their graves without ever being punished.
The main people that suffer from being ostracized in practice are oppressed minorities. It is never fairly applied, even if some places do a slightly better job of mostly targeting the people who deserve it.
I have a much simpler explanation. It’s because the united states is twenty six times bigger than japan.
In the United States, you can literally fuck off to the other side of the continent if if you piss off the people where you live. If your neighbors can remember you and hold a grudge, then they can ostracize you. In Japan, the cities are close enough to each other that there will be professional connections all over the place and you will not be able to escape your reputation.
Same reason, bad cops in the US can just go to a new precinct.
Have you heard of ‘cancelling’? It seems a pretty similar concept. Either way, I’m not sure we should shun people for expressing their honest opinions, that will just make them hide their opinions. We should instead try to respectfully convince them otherwise.
That is probably true up to a point - but there is also a point where some ‘honest opinions’ shouldn’t be tolerated or debated. The Nazis marching through Columbus two days ago don’t need to be respectfully convinced, they need to be put down however possible.
That happens a lot. Read about cancel culture. Or people shunned by their relatives due to religious beliefs. Also happens to people who are LGBT+. I’d say it’s a regular thing in western culture, too.
yeah, was going to say - being trans did get me shunned, lol
(not that being trans is a bad thing, I can’t help it and I’m not harming anyone)
I’m sorry for the being shunned part. I mean it’s no surprise to me that some people know about this and some don’t. That’s kind of the point of telling people they’re privileged and hence don’t know other people’s struggles. But once you’re not 100% mainstream and live your life exactly like all the other people, you’ll start to notice.
It’s OK, being closeted was worse. :-)
I didn’t realize having the wrong sex hormones in your body can mess up your mind - I was struggling with depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation, etc. for decades that were entirely unnecessary. A socially harder life with the right sex hormones is still much better than a closeted life with the wrong hormones. It was a hard lesson to learn, though.
Best part is when those same people that shun you for being “different” turn around and say shit like “Politics shouldn’t pick your friends.”
Yeah, that’s called bigotry and goes hand in hand with it.
especially when they’re also privileged and unaware of what it’s like to be a minority - I don’t really know how to cross that divide, though. I guess a cis man could cross-dress in public and see how it feels, see how they are treated.
Empathy and respect for other people helps…
Confirmation bias is a hell of a drug, huh?
Terrible Americans who we’ve shunned include:
Jeffrey Epstein
Harvey Weinstein
Charles Manson
Edit: I asked ChatGPT for more examples:
Bernie Madoff
Ted Bundy
Bill Cosby (debatable, he has his defenders)
Aaron Burr
Charles Ponzi
Benedict Arnold
John Wilkes Booth
Elizabeth Holmes
Jared Fogle (lol)
Martin Shkreli
Jeffrey Dahmer
Terrible Japanese people who weren’t shunned:
Hirohito
Shiro Ishii, Other 731 leaders
Nobusuke Kishi
Issei Sagawa
Shoko Asawara
A number of Yakuza leaders
Takeshi Kitano
Junya Sano
Don’t forget R Kelly
don’t forget Bill O’Reilly
Because money can buy your way out of a lot of problems.
Those without money are more like to get 20 year to lifetime sentences.
That concept doesnt exist so that the affluent and powerful can leverage their positions to get whatever they want whenever they want. If they had to worry about taboos, or being ostracized, they couldn’t get everything they wanted. So we’ve been conditioned a shameless society.
America’s position on this is those pictures of Henry VIII that show him as a strapping virile man, at a time when he had a leg wound that smelled rotten and would never heal, and was so obese he needed the throne extended. Thats our outlook on shame. Theres nothing to shame here, we are the bestest best and always will be. Problems? What societal problems? My chef just informed me the food is ready I must go.
They are shunned by a lot of people. Where do you think all the online hate comes from? Americans have just been so radicalized that a good chunk of them don’t care anymore. It’s not a majority, but enough to make a difference in politics. As seen by the elections that just took place.