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This article is FUD from big password.
If we all had big passwords, this may not have been an issue to begin with lol
Probably, but the real problem has been database dumps for a good number of years now. Maybe this thing fixes that?
That is true. That has been, and (for some dumb reason) continues to be, a real problem.
I thought passkeys were supposed to be a hardware device?
This is typical embrace/extend/extinguish behavior from the large platforms that don’t want their web-SSO hegemony challenged because it would mean less data collection and less vendor lock-in.
The whole idea of passkeys provided by an online platform should have been ruled out by the specification. It completely defeats the purpose of passkeys which is that the user has everything they need to authenticate themself.
I thought passkeys were supposed to be a hardware device?
Did you just admit to not even knowing what a passkey is and then decide to continue to write another two paragraphs passing judgement on them and the motives behind them anyway?
If you think that I’m misunderstanding something and arguing from a false premise then please feel free to engage with the discussion.
I don’t think that, you said that. It’s the very first sentence of your comment. You literally said that you misunderstood them to be hardware keys.
Did you read the article?
Yes, the author is also suffering from the same misconceptions and doesn’t really understand passkeys beyond the surface level, so he doesn’t know that the problems he has with them don’t exist.
He then goes on to reason that because passkeys might result in an awkward experience in exactly one extremely niche scenario, that you’re better off using passwords in a password manager that are less secure. He then proceeds to suggest the use of email as a second factor as an alternative, which destroys every shred of credibility he had. He also completely misses the fact that putting your passkeys in that very same password manager he himself is suggesting, solves the complaints that form over half of his entire argument. It’s super ironic too because the specific password manager that he’s recommending in his own article is a member of the FIDO Alliance and is literally one of the world’s biggest advocates for passkeys.
There was a related news recently, that bitwarden and other pw managers will be able to sync passkeys between devices. Won’t that solve these issues?
It does*.
However when I’m trying to login with a passkey in my mobile browser, Bitwarden prompt isn’t showing up. I don’t know what’s wrong.
That’s weird, it works for me. Is there something you need to click on the mobile site?
If you’re using Android it’s more than likely just an OS issue. I have had a lot of issues on my phone trying to use passkeys let alone just the password manager.
I’ve found on my android phone that the bitwarden prompt comes up more reliably if I tap on the password field instead of the username field.
This might be true, but I’m talking about passkeys, that never work :(
My thoughts exactly. I use Bitwarden and passkeys sync flawlessly between my devices. Password managers tied to a a device or ecosystem are stupid and people shouldn’t use them. This is true whether you use passwords or passkeys.
That said, we cannot blame users for bad UX that some platforms and some devs provide.
Isn’t your password manager tied to an ecosystem with Bitwarden ?
I’m surprised people trust third parties to hold their passwords.
Wasn’t there multiple password managers that got powned over the years ?
If you can sync Passwords you are also more exposed than some unhandy secure local password storage.
I can use bitwarden on Windows, Linux, Mac, iOS, Android, on desktop app or using CLI. That’s a stark difference in comparison with built in Microsoft or Apple keychains. And yes, I trust Bitwarden.
Wasn’t there multiple password managers that got powned over the years ?
Pretty much only LastPass
Bitwarden is not usable on Linux desktop, keeps asking for password. The password can’t be too short, so it takes some time to type it in. I turn off my computer when it’s not needed, so I would just need to type in the password when I turn it on again.
Anyone have a better solution?
Is “keeps asking for the password” the definition of “unusable on Linux”?
I have zero issue using this on Linux fwiw; yes, I am asked for password again on BW when I reboot/start my system. That is not inconvenient to me.
A better solution is to disable vault lock. It is very much usable (mostly talking about browser extension).
The fingerprint doesn’t work on Linux last time I tried
I think its a recent addition (08/2024) on Linux.
Add support for biometric unlock on Linux
Not in all situations. And in a way a user will not be aware of. The service or website can define what type of passkey is allowed (based in attestation). You may not be able to acutally use your “movable” keys because someone else decided so. You will not notice this until you actually face such a service. And when that happens, you can be sure that the average user will not understand what ia going on. Not all passkeys are equal, but that fact is hidden from the user.
I remain hopeful. Initially, when Keypass wanted to include a simple export option there was talk of banning them from using Passkeys.
For me, I’d prefer that everyone just adds biometric authentication techniques. A couple websites do this already and it’s great. Many devices have biometrics built in already and if this was widespread I’d certainly have no problem buying a fingerprint reader for my desktop computer.
You do realize that your biometric authentication techniques don’t actually send your biometrics (e.g. fingerprint/face) to the website you’re using and that you are actually just registering your device and storing a private key? Your biometrics are used to authenticate with your local device and unlock a locally-stored private key.
That private key is essentially what passkeys are doing, storing a private key either in a password manager or locally on device backed by some security hardware (e.g. TPM, secure enclave, hardware-backed keystore).
Question - what do you do when the site is hacked and your biometrics are compromised? Issue new ones?
The password still works.
You don’t have interchangeable fingerprints? Keep up with the times /s
That’s literally a passkey.
The problem with passkeys is that they’re essentially a halfway house to a password manager, but tied to a specific platform in ways that aren’t obvious to a user at all, and liable to easily leave them unable to access of their accounts.
Agreed, in its current state I wouldn‘t teach someone less technically inclined to solely rely on passkeys saved by the default platform if you plan on using different devices, it just leads to trouble.
If you’re going to teach someone how to deal with all of this, and all the potential pitfalls that might lock them out of your service, you almost might as well teach them how to use a cross-platform password manager
Using a password manager is still the solution. Pick one where your passkeys can be safed and most of the authors problems are solved.
The only thing that remains is how to log in if you are not on a device you own (and don’t have the password manager). The author mentions it: the QR code approach for cross device sign in. I don’t think it’s cumbersome, i think it’s actually a great and foolproof way to sign in. I have yet to find a website which implements it though.
QR codes are good 50% of the time; when you’re trying to log in on a pc.
The reverse case is extremely annoyingCould you elaborate? I am assuming that everbody would have the password manager on their mobile phone with them, which is used to scan the qr code. I think that’s a reasonable assumption.
I agree that if you wanted the pc to act as the authenticator (device that has the passkey) it wouldn’t work with qr codes. But is that a usecase that happens at all for average people? Does anyone login to a mobile device that you don’t own, and you only have your pc nearby and not your own mobile phone?
I’m thinking of phone recovery, where you’re trying to get all your stuff back on a new device.
With a password manager, simply logging in will get you there and until passkeys can be synced automatically just like passwords this will need to be handled somehow.I hope I am not misunderstanding you. What you are worried about is passkeys in the password manager not syncing to new devices? They are though, with password managers that support passkeys like Bitwarden, ProtonPass, 1Password etc…
Currently using it on Bitwarden, if I log in to a new device, the passkeys are there.
You understood correctly. Seems like I missed some news on the syncing front.
It could be your browser / system that is struggling to show it. When I use my work computer and Microsoft edge, I don’t think I’ve ever had a situation where the QR code didn’t work. When I use flatpak’d Firefox on my Linux laptop, I experience more trouble, probably because of the sandboxing.
According to the device support page i should be ok, but yeah there might be something weird going on.
people will pick the corporate options that are shoved on their faces, not the sensible open source user-respecting ones.
vendor lockin will happen if we adopt passkeys as they are right now.
Bitwarden just announced a consortium with Apple, Google, 1Password, etc to create a secure import/export format for credentials; spurred by the need for passkeys to be portable between password managers (but also works for passwords/other credential types)
I’m definitely holding off on passkeys until that project is finished. I also don’t want vendor lock in and while that seems like the solution, it seems like they just started working on it.
Import export is not the same as interoperability
The interoperability already exists in the protocol webauthn, part of FIDO2 which has been around for almost a decade. Interoperability is not remotely an issue with passkeys. Imported/export is/was and also already has a solution in the works.
So I can use the same passkey from say, bitwarden and windows hello? Why do you even need import export then?
Yes you can use a passkey set up on any given service to authenticate to a service that supports passkeys. You’d need import/export to move a given passkey from bitwarden to Windows.
I wish all sites using 2FA would just support hardware keys instead of authenticator apps. It’s so much easier to login to a site by just plugging in my hardware key and tapping its button, than going to my authenticator app and typing over some code within a certain time.
It’s even sinpler than email 2fa or sms 2fa or vendor app 2fa.
For authenticator app you also can’t easily add more devices unless you share the database which is bad for security. For hardware security key you can just add the key as an additional 2fa, if the site allows it.
Agreed, my main issues with hardware keys are that so few sites support them, and the OS support is kinda bad like in Windows the window pops up underneath everything and sometimes requires a pin entered.
I also hate that when I last looked nobody made a key that supports USB-C, USB-A, and NFC. So now I’ve got an awkward adapter I need to carry on my keychain.
Yeah it’s truly a shame almost no site other than google and github support hardware security keys.
For your case you would probably want a yubikey 5c and then a usb c to usb a adapter yeah. I wish for a usb a and c and nfc as well.
Yeah I didn’t understand passkeys. I’m like why is my browser asking to store them? What if I’m using another browser? Why is my password manager fighting with my browser on where to store this passkey?
I felt so uneasy.
So I decided not to use passkeys for now until I understood what’s going on.
Passkeys are unique cert pairs for each site. The site gets the public key, you keep the private to login under your account. The site never stores your private key.
To store them simply, turn off your browsers password/passkey storage. Store them in your password manager along with other sites passwords.
Sounds similar to the SSL stuff, like for GitHub and stuff. I guess the preference in that case would be my password manager as it stores my password already.
Perhaps it’s best I pay for Bitwarden premium now and use those hardware keys people are recommending.
Also thanks!
Because its the same shit. passkeys are essentially passwordless ssh certificates. we’ve had functional MFA for ssh literally since its inception.
I’m like why is my browser asking to store them? What if I’m using another browser? Why is my password manager fighting with my browser on where to store this passkey?
The answer to all of these questions is “For the exact same reason they do all these same things with passwords”
Think of a passkey as a very, very complex password that is stored on your device (or in a password manager) that you can use to log into websites with without ever having to know what the password is, and it’s never stored on the site you’re logging into, even in a hashed format, so it literally can’t be exposed in a breach.
It’s the exact same technology you use to connect securely to every website you visit, except used in reverse.
But that’s the problem isn’t it? You have no idea what the value is, your browser on your laptop or phone you are going to lose/eeplace/reset does. Password managers are still not well understood or used by the masses and browsers stepping in here is a recipe for disaster
With chrome and Firefox maybe the user is syncing them with a profile. But that profile is also probably using a passkey on that very browser. A regular user is going to walk face first into this.
His “just use email” like that isn’t very obviously worse in every respect kind of undermines his whole premise.
It’s because he has an email company he wants you to use for $100 a year lol
His whole premise is undermined by him not doing any research on the topic before deciding to write a blog post. Proton passkeys for instance, are cross platform, and the ability to transfer passkeys between devices is one of the features being worked on by the other providers.
Yeah… Why are articles like this being upvoted… I expected better from lemmy
This is the “Technology” community which isn’t for people who are actually tech-savvy in any functional way, it’s just for gadget-head laymen.
Passkeys are only good if they aren’t in a online password manager. They are better than TOTP 2FA in terms of security and phishing resistance. I see 2FA as a last resort when someone even gets into my password manager. Storing passkeys completely make this useless, as I’m sure anyone that can log into my accounts would’ve done so by getting a hold of my unencrypted password manager database. Unless android provides a real offline way of storing passkeys in the device, I am not interested alot.
Actual zero knowledge encrypted password managers with 2FA?
Keepass?
Or Bitwarden (supposedly)
Bitwarden is an online password manager and no I don’t consider self hosting it offline.
A sufficiently strong password and additional TOTP should protect you well enough.
Why not just passkeys with a “magic link” fallback though?
This is the same as forgotten password so ytf not
All the major password managers store passkeys now. I have every passkey I’ve been able to make stored in Bitwarden, and they’re accessible on all my devices.
Article is behind the times, and this dude was wrong to “rip out” passkeys as an option.
If a password manager stores passkeys, how is that much different than just using a password manager with passwords?
Storing passwords in a password manager is storing a shared secret where you can only control the security on your end and thus is still vulnerable to theft in a breach, negligence on the part of the party you’ve shared it with, phishing, man in the middle potentially, etc.
Storing a passkey in a password manager on the other hand is storing an unshared secret that nobody but you has access to, doesn’t leave your device during use, is highly phishing resistant, can’t be mishandled by the sites you use it to connect to etc.
Can you elaborate a bit more? If I create a passkey on https://passkeys.io on my Mac, then store the passkey in a password manager like Bitwarden, I can log into that site on my phone. I was kinda under the impression that Bitwarden stored the private key on their servers, so if their site gets hacked, then the attacker has access to my passkey.io account?
Your vault is encrypted on your device before it’s sent to Bitwarden’s servers, so even they don’t have access to your passwords and passkeys.
More info on how it is encrypted is here:
https://bitwarden.com/help/what-encryption-is-used/
Pretty much every password manager works like this. Having access to your data would be a liability for them.
I need to sync my passkeys between all my devices–which really means I need keepass to store the private keys in its DB so I can sync it with all the other keepass-compatible apps I use in various places. Last I looked, this wasn’t solved, but it’s been a minute. I’m certainly not using a centralized password manager unless they all can freely import and export from one another. I understand this is a “being worked on” problem.
So someday, yes.
Isn’t the sync for keepass-compatible apps just syncing a normal file?
That’s a typical DHH article, essentially. He has some interesting insights, but everything else is borderline cult-leader opinions, and some people follow it as gospel
I feel like if DHH hadn’t picked Ruby on Rails it and standalone Ruby would be much more popular today.
Just. Use. A. Fucking. Password. Manager.
It isn’t hard. People act like getting users to remember one password isn’t how it’s done already anyway. At least TFAing a password manager is way fucking easier than hoping every service they log into with “password123” has it’s own TFA. And since nearly every site uses shit TFA like a text or email message, it’s even better since they can use a Yubikey very easily instead.
Passkeys are a solution looking for a problem that hasn’t been solved already, and doing it badly.
You’re looking at this from the perspective of an educated end user. You’re pretty secure already from some common attack vectors. You’re also in the minority. Passkeys are largely about the health of the entire ecosystem. Not only do they protect against credentials being stolen, they also protect against phishing attacks because identity verification is built in. That is of huge value if you’re administering a site. Yes if everyone used a password manager there would be less value, but only about a third of users do that. And as an admin you can’t just say “well that guy got phished but it’s his own fault for not using a password manager.”
Password managers have only really taken off in the last half-decade, so one-third is kind of to be expected. I know they’ve been around a long time, but major adoption has been recent.
Passkeys will take a while to get wide adoption as well, especially with syncing problems that we’ve seen.
Password managers are never going to hit anywhere near 100% adoption rate. It requires knowledge on the part of the user and in many cases money. No grandma isn’t going to roll her own with keepass. Most likely she’ll never even know what a password manager is. And as long as those users are still out there, admins still have to deal with all the problems they bring.
Incidentally I looked and it’s been over a decade since I started using my first password manager. They’re not that new.
Yes, use a password manager to store your passkeys.
Passkeys are a solution looking for a problem that hasn’t been solved already, and doing it badly.
You say that and then
hoping every service they log into with “password123” has it’s own TFA. And since nearly every site uses shit TFA like a text or email message
That’s literally a problem passkeys solve and password managers don’t lol
I make the assumption people are using the password managers like they should, which is generating unique, complex passwords, which is kinda the point. Once you hit a certain number of characters on a random password, you might as well not try. And passkeys don’t solve any sort of MFA problem, same as passwords.
And tell me something, do you realize how cunty you come off when you end a comment with “lol”?
And passkeys don’t solve any sort of MFA problem
They do in fact solve this problem. Passkeys are something you have, and are secured by something you know, or something you are.
They also solve an age-old problem with passwords, which is that regardless of how complex your password is, it can be compromised in a breach. Because you have no say in how a company stores your password. And if that company doesn’t offer 2FA or only offers sms or email verification, then you’re even more at risk. This problem doesn’t exist with passkeys.
Edit: lol
it can be compromised in a breach
Sure, and then that one password is compromised. Password managers make it trivial to use unique passwords for every service, so if a service is breached, you’re basically as screwed with passwords as passkeys.
The switching cost here is high, and the security benefits are marginal in practice IMO. I’m not against passkeys, but it should be something password managers handle, and I don’t have a strong preference between TOTP baked into your PW manager and passkeys.
Sure, and then that one password is compromised.
Which means that entire service you used that password to login to is compromised. If you were using passkeys however, you would have nothing compromised.
so if a service is breached, you’re basically as screwed with passwords as passkeys.
No… with a passkey you would be not screwed at all. You’d be entirely unaffected.
the security benefits are marginal in practice
I mean in your own example that’s a reduction of 100%. That’s kind of a huge difference.
that entire service you used that password to login to is compromised
If the password is compromised, it means the service is compromised and the password isn’t really protecting anything anymore. So to me, there’s no functional difference between passwords and passkeys once a service is compromised, the data is already leaked. If I’m using proper MFA, there’s no rush to reset my PW unless the service has a stupid “backdoor” that can just bypass MFA entirely, in which case passkeys wouldn’t help either (attackers would just use the backdoor).
The main value of passkeys, AFAICT, is that they’re immune to phishing attacks. Other than that, they’re equivalent to TOTP + random password, so a password manager that supports both provides nearly equivalent security to a passkey (assuming the service follows standards like storing salted hashes). And honestly, if you use a solid form of TOTP (i.e. an app, not text or email), password security isn’t nearly as critical since you can make up for it by improving the TOTP vault security.
I honestly haven’t bothered setting up passkeys anywhere, because I don’t see any real security benefit. If a service provides passkeys, it probably already supported decent MFA and random passwords. The services that should upgrade won’t, because they’ve already shown they don’t care about security by not providing decent MFA options.
In short:
- passkeys > passwords
- passkeys == random passwords + TOTP
The venn diagram of companies that support passkeys and companies that supported/support random passwords + TOTP is essentially a circle, with the former enclosed in the latter. So I don’t really see any rush to “upgrade.”
Not even close. To be honest you’re operating on so many incorrect assumptions and have such a lack of general knowledge of common attack surfaces or even the average scope of modern breaches, that digging you out of this hole would take so much more than what I can fit in a single comment.
So
If the password is compromised, it means the service is compromised and the password isn’t really protecting anything anymore
No… just no. That isn’t how it works. In reality, what commonly happens is metadata around the service is what’s targeted and compromised. So your password, email, and other data like that are what’s stolen. Maybe in plain text, maybe something hashed that a malicious actor can brute force offline without you knowing. If you’re someone using a password in this situation, your password is then used to access your account, and that actor can do any number of things while masquerading as you, potentially entirely undetected. If you’re using a passkey on the other hand, this isn’t even something you need to worry about. They cannot get access to your passkey because the service doesn’t even have it. You are entirely immune. That is something that no amount of Passwords or bolt-ons will fix.
This is the main value of passkeys, they are not shared secrets. Not only is that a huge difference, it’s the single largest paradigm shift possible. The secondary value of passkeys is that they are immune to phishing. This is also huge, as phishing is hands down the most successful way to break into someone’s account, and happens to even the most security conscious people. If a cybersecurity researchers who write books on the topic can be phished, so too can a layman such as yourself. Hand waving away a phishing immune authentication system is unhinged behavior. And it goes to show you’re not even coming from a place of curiosity or even ignorance, but likely misinformation.
In short:
- Passkeys > Passwords
- Passkeys > Random Passwords + TOTP.
I just wish that companies enabling passkeys would still allow password+MFA. There are several sites that, when you enable passkeys, lock you out of MFA for devices that lack a biometric second factor of authentication. I’d love to use passkeys + biometrics otherwise, since I’ve often felt that the auth problem would be best solved with asymmetric cryptography.
If companies still allowed you to login via password then any benefit you get from Passkeys would be null and void. In order to implement passkeys properly you have to disable password authentication.
The thing is it’s then on you to secure your passkey with biometrics or a password or whatever you prefer. Your phone most likely will use biometrics by default. If you’re on Mac or PC you’ll need to buy a thumbprint scanner or use camera-based window hello / secure enclave
I just don’t get why I can’t use something like TOTP from my phone or a key fob when logging in with a passkey from my desktop. Why does my second factor have to be an on-device biometrically protected keystore? The sites I’m thinking of currently support TOTP when using passwords, so why can’t they support the same thing when using passkeys? I don’t want to place all my trust in the security of my keystore. I like that I have to unlock my phone to get a TOTP. Someone would have to compromise my local keystore and my phone, which makes it a better second factor in my opinion.
EDIT: like, at work, I ssh to servers all over the damn place using an ssh key. I have to get to those servers through a jump box that requires me to unlock my phone and provide a biometric second factor before it will allow me through. That’s asymmetric cryptography + a second factor of authentication that’s still effective even if someone has compromised my machine and has direct access to my private key. That’s what I want from passkeys.
I have to get to those servers through a jump box that requires me to unlock my phone and provide a biometric second factor before it will allow me through.
That is also the case with passkeys, if you so choose. Though they are functionally similar to your SSH key, they don’t just allow you to utilize the key just by having it loaded onto your device. When you go to use a passkey you need to authenticate your key upon use, and you can do that biometrically. For example let’s say I have a passkey on my phone which is currently unlocked and in use. If somebody runs over and steals the phone from my hand and prevents it from locking, and then attempts to authenticate to a site using my passkey, they won’t be able to.
Right, but I can’t require a second factor on a different device that operates outside of my primary device’s trust store. I’m sure there is some way to make my desktop hit my phone up directly and ask for fingerprint auth before unlocking the local keystore, but that still depends on the security of my device and my trust store. I don’t want the second factor to be totally locked to the device I’m running on. I want the server to say, “oh, cool, here’s this passkey. It looks good, but we also need a TOTP from you before you can log in,” or “loving the passkey, but I also need you to respond to the push notification we just sent to a different device and prove your identity biometrically over there.” I don’t want my second factor to be on the same device as my primary factor. I don’t know why a passkey (potentially protected by local biometric auth) + a separate server-required second factor (TOTP or push notification to a different device or something) isn’t an option.
EDIT: I could make it so a fingerprint would decrypt my SSH key rather than what I have now (i.e. a password). That would effectively be the same number of factors as you’re describing for a passkey, and it would not be good enough for my organization’s security model, nor would it be good enough for me.
I mean you don’t have to authenticate your passkey with biometrics, you can use a password.
I guess I’m not really picking up on what the benefit is you’re going for. You already have a What You Have and a What You Know or What You Are, and you want a second What You Also Have thrown in there. I mean, I guess having that as an option couldn’t hurt. but I also don’t think it’s really necessary.
Passkeys are already more secure than what you’re doing now. If what you’re aiming for is for them to be even more secure than that, then that’s an admirable goal. But as of right now they are worth it just for the fact that they’re more secure than existing solutions.
thats close to what i have been fucking saying and getting hate for.
so im glad someone has written it on a damn blog to legitimize it?
With a password manager I’d argue its better but supports still not all there yet. I am waiting on bitwarden right now to support mull, basically its blacklisted, but it was added in the last 2 weeks so now its a waiting game.
