I’m theory, yes. In practice the idea of socialism has been hijacked and subverted by the same ruling class to serve their nefarious needs time and time again. Y’all should focus instead on how socialism is incompatible with authoritarianism. “Power to the people” my ass.
No, it has not. Read Blackshirts and Reds, which I already linked. Communist movements served the Proletariat, not the Bourgeoisie. They also were by no means perfect “worker’s paradises.” Another good article is *Why Do Marxists Fail to Bring the “Worker’s Paradise?” if you can only spare 20 minutes and not read a whole book.
Y’all should focus instead on how socialism is incompatible with authoritarianism
You should read On Authority, Marx and Engels were constantly hounded as “authoritarian” for advocating for central planning.
Thanks for linking the article. I like most of its points, but I don’t agree with this materialistic outlook that the economic development is the be-all and end-all solution to implementing “true” socialism.
I believe that the root cause of all attempts of it failing so far is that humans are selfish assholes. Unless everyone bar none starts caring about their brethren and sistren at least as much as they care about themselves, the system can’t work. It’s simply too prone to being overtaken by bad faith actors who will inevitably abuse it for self serving purposes in the name of “socialism”.
Marx and Engels were constantly hounded as “authoritarian” for advocating for central planning.
Well maybe these two guys were a product of their time and had some not-so-good ideas, so not every word of theirs should be taken as a gospel.
Thanks for linking the article. I like most of its points, but I don’t agree with this materialistic outlook that the economic development is the be-all and end-all solution to implementing “true” socialism.
There’s no such thing as “true socialism,” that’s part of the point of the article.
I believe that the root cause of all attempts of it failing so far is that humans are selfish assholes. Unless everyone bar none starts caring about their brethren and sistren at least as much as they care about themselves, the system can’t work. It’s simply too prone to being overtaken by bad faith actors who will inevitably abuse it for self serving purposes in the name of “socialism”.
Why do you think Socialism cares about thinfs like self-serving people?
Well maybe these two guys were a product of their time and had some not-so-good ideas, so not every word of theirs should be taken as a gospel.
Not as gospel, sure, but they have been proven correct.
There’s no such thing as “true socialism,” that’s part of the point of the article.
Sure, but it provided a reason why the previous attempts of it failed, and in my opinion it’s only a part of the equation.
Why do you think Socialism cares about thinfs like self-serving people?
Socialism can not care, as it’s is not a conscious entity. Socialism can only “care” about whatever the people that are trying to implement it care about. And it failed every time in large part, IMO, because people didn’t care about things like self-serving people.
Not as gospel, sure, but they have been proven correct.
Proven correct by whom? Soviet Union which fell apart? North Korea that haven’t collapsed yet only because it’s propped by China? China which had Mao starve tens of millions people to death and is currently successful only because it’s full blown capitalist and “communist” in name only?
Sure, but it provided a reason why the previous attempts of it failed, and in my opinion it’s only a part of the equation.
No, AES worked. It provided a reason why AES states weren’t and aren’t perfect paradises that only exist in imagination.
Socialism can not care, as it’s is not a conscious entity. Socialism can only “care” about whatever the people that are trying to implement it care about. And it failed every time in large part, IMO, because people didn’t care about things like self-serving people.
Socialism works, it just isn’t a magical wonderland. That’s the point.
Proven correct by whom? Soviet Union which fell apart? North Korea that haven’t collapsed yet only because it’s propped by China? China which had Mao starve tens of millions people to death and is currently successful only because it’s full blown capitalist and “communist” in name only?
Mao didn’t “starve a bunch of people,” Mao ended famines in one of the poorest countries in the world, something Socialism Developed China, Not Capitalism proves.
USSR did work. PRC does work as well, and is Socialist, not Capitalist. Read Socialism Developed China, Not Capitalism and Blackshirts and Reds Cuba works, Vietnam works, Laos works too.
We seem to have different definitions of what “working” means. What I’ve got from the article, which glosses over the inconvenient facts (like how much of China’s success can be attributed to western capitalists moving all of their manufacturing to China), is that you can do whatever the fuck you want and still call it socialism. And your fans will believe you, because they don’t care to look deeper beneath the label. The party line trumps all.
Mao didn’t “starve a bunch of people,” Mao ended famines in one of the poorest countries in the world
So what is the Great Chinese Famine then? Another inconvenient fact in the sea of inconvenient facts that you chose to close your eyes to? Do you think that lying to yourself and everyone else about historical facts like this one gives you a moral high ground over Nazi sympathizers who deny holocaust?
Thanks for calling tankies what they are: fascist.
Read Blackshirts and Reds, Socialism and Fascism are entirely incompatible and serve entirely different classes.
I’m theory, yes. In practice the idea of socialism has been hijacked and subverted by the same ruling class to serve their nefarious needs time and time again. Y’all should focus instead on how socialism is incompatible with authoritarianism. “Power to the people” my ass.
No, it has not. Read Blackshirts and Reds, which I already linked. Communist movements served the Proletariat, not the Bourgeoisie. They also were by no means perfect “worker’s paradises.” Another good article is *Why Do Marxists Fail to Bring the “Worker’s Paradise?” if you can only spare 20 minutes and not read a whole book.
You should read On Authority, Marx and Engels were constantly hounded as “authoritarian” for advocating for central planning.
Thanks for linking the article. I like most of its points, but I don’t agree with this materialistic outlook that the economic development is the be-all and end-all solution to implementing “true” socialism.
I believe that the root cause of all attempts of it failing so far is that humans are selfish assholes. Unless everyone bar none starts caring about their brethren and sistren at least as much as they care about themselves, the system can’t work. It’s simply too prone to being overtaken by bad faith actors who will inevitably abuse it for self serving purposes in the name of “socialism”.
Well maybe these two guys were a product of their time and had some not-so-good ideas, so not every word of theirs should be taken as a gospel.
There’s no such thing as “true socialism,” that’s part of the point of the article.
Why do you think Socialism cares about thinfs like self-serving people?
Not as gospel, sure, but they have been proven correct.
Sure, but it provided a reason why the previous attempts of it failed, and in my opinion it’s only a part of the equation.
Socialism can not care, as it’s is not a conscious entity. Socialism can only “care” about whatever the people that are trying to implement it care about. And it failed every time in large part, IMO, because people didn’t care about things like self-serving people.
Proven correct by whom? Soviet Union which fell apart? North Korea that haven’t collapsed yet only because it’s propped by China? China which had Mao starve tens of millions people to death and is currently successful only because it’s full blown capitalist and “communist” in name only?
No, AES worked. It provided a reason why AES states weren’t and aren’t perfect paradises that only exist in imagination.
Socialism works, it just isn’t a magical wonderland. That’s the point.
USSR did work. PRC does work as well, and is Socialist, not Capitalist. Read Socialism Developed China, Not Capitalism and Blackshirts and Reds Cuba works, Vietnam works, Laos works too.
Mao didn’t “starve a bunch of people,” Mao ended famines in one of the poorest countries in the world, something Socialism Developed China, Not Capitalism proves.
If it worked we’d still have Soviet Union today.
We seem to have different definitions of what “working” means. What I’ve got from the article, which glosses over the inconvenient facts (like how much of China’s success can be attributed to western capitalists moving all of their manufacturing to China), is that you can do whatever the fuck you want and still call it socialism. And your fans will believe you, because they don’t care to look deeper beneath the label. The party line trumps all.
So what is the Great Chinese Famine then? Another inconvenient fact in the sea of inconvenient facts that you chose to close your eyes to? Do you think that lying to yourself and everyone else about historical facts like this one gives you a moral high ground over Nazi sympathizers who deny holocaust?