• zarkanian@sh.itjust.works
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    4 months ago

    If you’re eating meat, then you’re contributing to the death of all of those plants that had to feed the animals you’re eating. Even if you grant plants sentience, veganism is still the more ethical option.

    • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      4 months ago

      if you grant plants sentience, veganism is still the more ethical option.

      … for ethical systems in which sentience is a consideration.

    • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      4 months ago

      If you’re eating meat, then you’re contributing to the death of all of those plants that had to feed the animals you’re eating

      impossible. an event in the future cannot cause an event in the past.

      • Floey@lemm.ee
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        4 months ago

        When you eat animals you give the market a financial incentive to breed and slaughter more animals, who inevitably have to eat a bunch of plants to grow. It’s not that you eating a burger kills a cow, but you eating a burger helps make it financially sound and socially acceptable to murder cows for burgers.

      • zarkanian@sh.itjust.works
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        4 months ago

        “Yes, your honor, he did kill my wife and I did give him money. However, I gave him the money afterwards, and effects cannot occur before causes, so there’s no possible connection.”

        • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          4 months ago

          surely you can see that there are going to need be more evidence. some kind of communication prior to the fact is probably going to need to be established.

          • flerp@lemm.ee
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            4 months ago

            It’s called supply and demand. They know there is a demand for meat so they grow animals and feed those animals plants. Continuing to eat meat supports a system that consumes more plants than a system where humans only eat plants. You shouldn’t need your hand held for this, it’s pretty basic stuff.

            • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              4 months ago

              You shouldn’t need your hand held for this, it’s pretty basic stuff.

              this is just posturing. it doesn’t support your (erroneous) claim, nor does it undermine my (obviously correct) position.

            • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              4 months ago

              supply and demand.

              that’s a theory about price discovery that actually has no predictive value. it is not a magic phrase that traverses space-time

              • rekorse@lemmy.world
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                4 months ago

                Okay so you are responsible for the next dead cow that the company has to produce now to replace the one you bought.

                Your action led to a dead cow in the future.

                Does that work?

                • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  4 months ago

                  Your action led to a dead cow in the future.

                  Does that work?

                  no, that’s not causal. but even if it were, it doesn’t make me responsible for the killing of the plants or animals in the past.

                • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  4 months ago

                  the company has to produce now to replace the one you bought.

                  no, they don’t. they could choose not to do that. I am not responsible for their choices.

    • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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      4 months ago

      Is “more ethical” really enough if you accept that plants can suffer? You’re still essentially saying one group of living things’ suffering is acceptable to you. Isn’t that like saying the holocaust of the Jews was bad, but the holocaust of the Roma at the same time was fine because there were fewer Roma than Jews? Does “less” matter when we’re talking quantities so massive?

      I don’t think there are easy answers to any of these questions. Not if you want to approach them from an honest philosophical level.

      • AA5B@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        It’s the fish argument all over again. Some vegetarians reason they can eat fish because fish has simple enough nervous system that it can be aware of its suffering. Sure it reacts to pain, but is it aware?

        Similarly, grass may react to damage, but have such simple systems that you can’t even call it pain, much less that they have any awareness of pain

          • Asifall@lemmy.world
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            4 months ago

            There is an interesting catch to this argument, which is that in a human body we can eliminate pain by using general anesthesia or nerve blockers. Locally the body still reacts to damage but the actual person doesn’t experience any pain because it isn’t communicated to their consciousness. If we accept that being unconscious precludes experiencing pain then it follows that consciousness is a pre-requisite for pain.

            On the other hand if it’s still unethical to inflict damage on a living thing without consciousness then is it unethical to operate on a sedated person even though they don’t consciously experience pain?

            • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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              4 months ago

              Very interesting points, and this was the sort of discussion I was hoping to have. These are complex ethical questions without simple answers and in 100 years, people may look back at any eating choices made in this time, be they vegan or 100% carnivore, to be absolutely nuts because none of us have figured out that the real key to good and ethical nutrition is everyone eats a soup made from cloned moose DNA and petroleum. Science is constantly changing and moving on, so who knows? But it’s an interesting thing to talk about, at least to me.

              For now, I am on the side of those who say it is not ethical to eat meats, but it is ethical to eat plants. In 20 years of plant science? Who can say?

      • AnimalsDream@slrpnk.net
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        4 months ago

        If our ability to modify ourselves reaches sci fi levels, allowing us to photosynthesize and fix amino acids from nitrogen in the atmosphere (or if there’s any hope of making that happen), then that likely will be the new vegan position.

      • zarkanian@sh.itjust.works
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        4 months ago

        Is “more ethical” really enough if you accept that plants can suffer

        I don’t accept that, but even if I did, you should still act to minimize suffering as much as possible.

        Do you really believe that killing a plant is the same as killing an animal?

        • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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          4 months ago

          I literally wrote this:

          Do I think plants have the same sort of sentience as animals and will I stop eating broccoli? Of course not.

          I guess you didn’t actually read my entire post before you responded.