By Jeremy Hsu on September 24, 2024
Popular smart TV models made by Samsung and LG can take multiple snapshots of what you are watching every second – even when they are being used as external displays for your laptop or video game console.
Smart TV manufacturers use these frequent screenshots, as well as audio recordings, in their automatic content recognition systems, which track viewing habits in order to target people with specific advertising. But researchers showed this tracking by some of the world’s most popular smart TV brands – Samsung TVs can take screenshots every 500 milliseconds and LG TVs every 10 milliseconds – can occur when people least expect it.
“When a user connects their laptop via HDMI just to browse stuff on their laptop on a bigger screen by using the TV as a ‘dumb’ display, they are unsuspecting of their activity being screenshotted,” says Yash Vekaria at the University of California, Davis. Samsung and LG did not respond to a request for comment.
Vekaria and his colleagues connected smart TVs from Samsung and LG to their own computer server. Their server, which was equipped with software for analysing network traffic, acted as a middleman to see what visual snapshots or audio data the TVs were uploading.
They found the smart TVs did not appear to upload any screenshots or audio data when streaming from Netflix or other third-party apps, mirroring YouTube content streamed on a separate phone or laptop or when sitting idle. But the smart TVs did upload snapshots when showing broadcasts from the TV antenna or content from an HDMI-connected device.
The researchers also discovered country-specific differences when users streamed the free ad-supported TV channel provided by Samsung or LG platforms. Such user activities were uploaded when the TV was operating in the US but not in the UK.
By recording user activity even when it’s coming from connected laptops, smart TVs might capture sensitive data, says Vekaria. For example, it might record if people are browsing for baby products or other personal items.
Customers can opt out of such tracking for Samsung and LG TVs. But the process requires customers to either enable or disable between six and 11 different options in the TV settings.
“This is the sort of privacy-intrusive technology that should require people to opt into sharing their data with clear language explaining exactly what they’re agreeing to, not baked into initial setup agreements that people tend to speed through,” says Thorin Klosowski at the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a digital privacy non-profit based in California.
The question now is, even if I don’t connect the TV to Internet, what TV brand should I buy? Currently I have LG, but no way I’m supporting that even without Internet connection.
hopfully they dont communicate locally with other lg or partnered devices
now or in the future
Fortunately these TVs are not yet sophisticated enough to communicate to the internet without your permission like Apple devices do now.
Like amazon ring devices? I think it’s called Sidewalk .
Many video projectors don’t. My Epson doesn’t.
Yeah I get that. But I don’t want to use projector.
I can’t imagine using a TV. None of them are wall sized and I don’t have the space. Pull down screen fits the bill.
I can completely understand the use case, I just prefer the better display quality of a TV
that name invokes the old horror that is printers
Epsons were pretty chill printers. You could buy just the print head and you could use your own ink refills
Epson printers are pretty nice, on par with Brother for usability.
I can top it - my first desktop PC was an Epson. Come to think of it, my first printer was an Epson dot matrix. Loud as fuck but it was a good little workhorse.
Well thing is, they all track you to some point.
Specs wise, LG still makes some of the best TVs. You want 4k 120Hz, they’ve got you. But if you feel morally unable to support a company that has opt-out tracking like this, you’re a bit more limited. I thought maybe Sony’s better, but nope. There’s instructions on how to disable ACR on their TVs too. Philips comes with Roku or Google TV, both of which snoop on you, but I don’t know if they do the automatic content recognition thing.
Dumb TVs exist, but good luck finding one with a decent resolution AND price.
good luck finding one with a decent resolution AND price.
That raises the question: is there one that has decent resolution and privacy, but is expensive? Those of us who can afford it should surely go for the privacy friendly option regardless of price. Boycotting the surveillance society that’s in full development is worth a lot.
This is why our “smart” TV is not allowed to be connected to the internet.
But can you really be sure that it doesn’t connect to another network? i have to check again but if i recall correctly there are TVs that try to connect to other open networks or even look for other TVs from the same manufacturer and connect through those to the internet. I have to double check this again, so take this with a grain of salt
If that’s true - lan for your own content with network isolation and ripping out the WiFi antenna, I guess?? I hate this
I am a bit puzzled about the “even when your laptop is connected” part.
I have a small android box connected to it and am not using apps on the TV so it should have no chance of sending screenshot out even if it takes them.
The TV itself is not connected
But if you connect your phone to the android box then the TV could use the phone to send the screenshots.
TV->android box->phone->internet.
Sorry for being paranoid but can the TV piggyback the connection used by the the streaming device/android box to send data back to the TV OEM?
Not yet but it is clear in the future most devices will be able to do that, we will have ubiquitous low grade internet access everywhere. Your neighbours devices will let your electronics snitch on you even if you seal up your own internet
Good point. We can have a honeypot wifi. Check my other comment in the thread.
Okay, so for the new folks with networking, how do you set up a honeypot wifi? Have a (second) router powered on with no connection? Or is it something you can set up with one router?
Many routers have a functionality to create a guest wifi. These usually run on a separate VLAN so that it can’t access other devices on the network. After creating this guest wifi, you have manually disable internet access on this but keep the wifi on.
Unfortunately the process varies between router to router.
The only connection the TV has is hdmi. I do not think that back and forth communication is possible there.
If the TV has wifi, it can do its thing but that would also be easy to disable.
what kind of Android box do you have? anything you recommend? (looking to have some sort of streaming client)
Nvidia Shield. The bigger one.
Yes, it’s a couple of years old at this point, but it’s still the best device of its kind.
Not to mention the remote is FANTASTIC.
It’s a Chinese one that I used at first for retro gaming with emuelec. Now it is dual boot and I have kodi and newpipe on it too.
the google tv with chromecast dongle is quite decent, good price/performance ratio
There is such a thing called HDMI Ethernet. If you connect some sort of Android box to your TV it might establish an Ethernet connection with it and thus connect to the internet.
If you use an Android TV system you don’t get to complain about your video output device tracking.
I have searched for alternatives. There are none that I am aware of. I just want a streaming box that can run jellyfin with a simple remote. I really don’t want to use a keyboard in bed.
If anyone knows a simple setup that boots straight into jellyfin with a remote, I would love to hear about it.
Maybe put Lineage OS on a compatible Android TV box. These do have remotes and have almost no Google telemetry.
Android has closed source Google spy framework, don’t use that.
Agreed. It’s not solving anything when you move to Android TV.
A smart TV is not allowed on my property.
If you have a smart device, someone is doing this with it. Best options to reduce their ability to access your devices: smart TV’s - don’t connect them to the internet unless you’re updating the firmware. Use a streaming stick for streaming services, and then your privacy violations are minimized to the streaming stick that doesn’t have a mic, or camera. Some controllers do have a mic, it’s only a problem with who is making the tech. Other smart devices like fridge, microwave, oven, washer, etc, just never connect them to the internet, they likely will work fine their entire life without a network connection. Personal smart devices such as smart phones, remove google, and apple. Neither can truly be trusted, however apple does have a track record of keeping their snooping to themselves for what that’s worth. For robots, they will likely need a network connection, I recommend supporting home automation projects that will allow us to replace the OS on our robot vacuums, and food delivery devices with one that connects to a home based server that doesn’t need an internet connection. But never, ever, trust a smart device that is within hearing, seeing, or is touching you. It is a monitoring device, and it is being used that way by anyone with enough power.
Actual paper here.
https://arxiv.org/html/2409.06203v1
It is not sending full screenshots as anybody technical would already have guessed. It’s a few KB over an hour, so it’s content recognition hashes.
Opt out anyway. Their study shows the opt out option does indeed opt you out of it.
That’s both disturbing and completely expected. I’ve generally always preferred monitors over TVs tbh, this is just another reason for it lol
My pi-hole blocks SO MUCH traffic from my Rokus. Never buying another Roku again.
I had to update my LG recently and it had to get approval for all sorts of weird shit. Oddly enough, it let me continue using just about everything even after I denied all the very invasive checkboxes. I guess even they can’t deny use of your own tv if you reject the agreement lol
For future reference, you can update LG TVs via USB so you can avoid connecting it to a network.
You hear that? It’s a whisper… It’s a multinational multibillion dollar class action lawsuit coming after Samsung and LG. WTF!
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No… they only record on HDMI.
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Did you go beyond the headline?
They found the smart TVs did not appear to upload any screenshots or audio data when streaming from Netflix or other third-party apps, mirroring YouTube content streamed on a separate phone or laptop or when sitting idle. But the smart TVs did upload snapshots when showing broadcasts from the TV antenna or content from an HDMI-connected device.
So an HDMI connected device that is streaming Netflix is getting screenshot?
I mean, even if it wasn’t a streaming service, but let’s say, video game content, or a blu ray, that is still a violation, and of course, if I’m playing content I made, then it’s violating my copyright.
so? we aren’t allowed to take netflix screenshots at all
Says who?
You are allowed to take screenshots of Netflix, even under the DMCA on DRM protected material. You are not allowed to use it commercially though. Personal use only.
Because your laptop cannot have Netflix, or a DRM enabled browser?
No, the point here is that if you use the “smart” features, which includes running apps from their appstore, like Netflix or Disney+, it will not send the data. But if you connect your laptop via HDMI and then play Netflix in your browser, it will, because it’s not smart enough to recognize and differentiafe video and audio data coming in through that port. I don’t think it matters if it’s a DRM enabled browser or not. It should be acting as a second monitor only in those cases, nothing more.
It may be them either not trespassing their territory (as a part of a deal or as a precaution) or TV apps sharing\telegraphing that info without the need of screen cap analysis as they work on TV itself and may as well be special modified apks. At least, they differed
Laptop sends only it’s video and audio outputs, apps’ code executes at it’s hardware, so TV needs a workaround to know what you are watching. And as it’s incapable of such analysis itself, it channels that data to it’s real owner.
Does it means that it broadcast my chrome browser if connected through HDMI? If I check for a password in the password manager in chrome, it fucking sends my password to Samsung?
Yes and no. Supposedly the resolution is not in 4K or even 1080p, but something much lower that is still enough to identify content, like shows, movies and ads, but not enough to make out minute detail.
Jokes on them tho, they lack common understanding.
I watch a video about someone modding a shitbox and they think i can afford this new spyker sports car or any other 80k e car.
Obviously that shit is a swing and a miss. You want to give me advertising that suits me? Start by advertising stickers about cars because that’s something i could afford…not something i would buy tho.
Hmmm
“how to diy replace stolen catalytic converter”
“96 Ford esprit strange smell and noise in roof”
Youtube: buy this $90 grand all terrain thingy on credit!
Ig it’s time to buy a regular tv then
LG by now will have several weeks of footage of me scrolling through streaming services and failing to find anything to watch.
Diagnosis: ADHD. Display ads for stimulants.
They collect all this data and then still cancel the most watched/best shows.
Morons.
So what do we do when smart TVs force us to connect to the Internet, and refuse to work until we do?
This is exhausting. We’re speeding towards a horrible, privacy-less future.
That’s a easy solution, here are the steps:
Step 1: Do not purchase a smart TV
Step 2: Yay, you did it! You did all the steps. 🥳
That’s getting harder to find by the day
Have you bought a TV in the last 5 years?
CRT is the way baby!
i would LOVE a crt but my dad really loves smart tvs :| any model recs? i have some free space in my room
No. Did you read step one?
We own a few TVs but nobody actually watches them. If we’re all out in the living room there’s four phones out with four people watching four different things.
Dystopian
Is it? I mean, 100 years ago you might all be reading different things, with either a record on or possibly the radio. Why is it terrible that now you’re all… reading different things together in one room?
Interwebs are too addicting. It’s like we are all in one room and are snorting coke by ourselves.
It’s one thing to read a newspaper or a book, different one to scroll social media stuck in an infinite loop of dopamine. Our lives may be longer than ever but in practice they are shorter than ever
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, corporations treat you like a product. Whether you buy something from them or not. People are becoming the product that they sell.
I usually don’t care very much until it starts to affect pricing for stuff based on some algorithms impression of how desperate you are. That algorithm started with travel (airlines, online booking fees for hotels and stuff) and has expanded.
If I need a new computer because mine isn’t working, I don’t really care that advertisers come at me with ads for their computer products. I need one, they want me to buy one, it’s marketing. No worries.
If I need a new computer and suddenly all the prices for new systems goes up by $100 because it thinks I’m desperate enough to pay that, now I have a problem.
I still don’t like them selling my data, and I’ll do what I can to avoid it, but marketing is going to do marketing things.
