It is literally impossible to send a file over the internet with no more than one copy. Every additional “loan” is multiple additional copies. Even if we ignore that, you’re very conveniently ignoring the “material objects” part of that definition, which again, completely and unconditionally disqualifies a loan over the internet.
DRM is entirely irrelevant. It has no bearing on anything.
They filed a lawsuit because IA flagrantly and egregiously violated their rights. They openly fucking dared them to. And now they don’t get ignored on their limited copy illegal lending and can’t get away with any copies.
you’re very conveniently ignoring the “material objects” part of that definition
I’m not, it’s just that the wording of the definition could lead to you interpreting it as such. It does not mean what you think it means.
In essence, it’s saying that if a material object is “fixed” (under copyright law, that tends to mean captured in a medium that allows it to be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated) it is considered a copy. Copyright law generally considers things like written texts (i.e. transcribing a book onto other sheets of paper) to be copies, but it also includes things like recordings, which are very much nontangible. (although still stored on tangible hardware) Also, note the “either directly or with the aid of a machine or device” section of that description.
DRM is entirely irrelevant. It has no bearing on anything.
The fact you consider DRM to be irrelevant in a conversation about managing legal access to digitally distributed content shows a lot about your understanding of this topic, to say the least.
DRM is highly relevant. If it were not, then all libraries would already be illegally publishing copies under the agreements they sign with publishers when they distribute books through DRM-protected applications like Overdrive or Libby. Legal consequence also does not extend past the original publisher if the intent was clearly not to deliberately allow for further copying. (i.e. if the Internet Archive stated they lent books so users could copy them and later share them with friends, that would be a violation. Instead, they have loan terms, limits, and DRM)
If anything done by a user after the lending of any material, outside of reasonable safeguards (like DRM) was to be considered illegal, then any store would be liable if someone used a kitchen knife to kill someone, and any chemical distributor would be liable if someone in a lab mixed the wrong chemicals together and made an explosion. Liability has an end point, and DRM helps signify that by placing technical restrictions on redistribution of material, while also carrying heavy legal penalties for breaking it, which would not be present if it wasn’t applied in the first place.
Publishers should not be able to sue libraries for lending their books, digital, physical, or otherwise. Especially when the publishers could not demonstrate any material harm.
You are actively defending multi-billion dollar publishing companies suing a library for lending content they legally acquired, using faulty interpretations of the law, and deference to lawsuits as a means of judging the morality of actions. You haven’t made a single point that wasn’t either verifiably untrue, or misinformed.
DRM is relevant to the legal redistribution because that is part of the terms of their license agreement and for no other reason. Their entire lending practice of digital copies is legal because, and only because, they have contracts that specifically determine how they may do so.
It does not in any way alter the nature of blatant illegal copies. It does not make every loan not multiple distinct illegal copies.
I’m actively opposing people telling insane, completely unhinged lies that aren’t even loosely connected to reality to validate a position that every single person with a shred of common sense knew was going to get laughed out of court the day they did it and did get laughed out of court. If you tried this case a million times, Internet Archive wouldn’t have a chance in any of them.
Petition for changes to the law. Don’t lie and pretend the law says what you want it to.
DRM is relevant to the legal redistribution because that is part of the terms of their license agreement and for no other reason.
This is simply not true. If someone takes means to prevent illegal action, in a situation where they can choose to either do so, or not do so, taking those means shows they are attempting to prevent any negative legal outcomes.
The Internet Archive was explicitly, voluntarily enacting similar policy to libraries that directly license books from publishers, because they knew that it would show they were making an effort to lend responsibly. To me, it seems they carried on this set of ethics to when they opened up more copies than they originally had on hand, because that was during a time when library branches were becoming physically inaccessible, and physical resources were becoming increasingly hard to access, thus, responsible lending would include effectively making the inaccessible physical copies in other libraries accessible. That part might not be considered legal, but again, who cares? These publishers saw a substantial increase in profits during the time they were supposedly hurt by the Internet Archive, and continue to squeeze traditional libraries for every penny they can get under exploitative lending agreements. What the Internet Archive did was for the objective moral good of society.
If anything’s illegal, it’s compelling libraries to only license your content directly from you for a higher rate, while trying to discourage them from using the physical copies they can buy once like any other sane person.
Petition for changes to the law. Don’t lie and pretend the law says what you want it to.
I have not misrepresented the law by pretending it says something else. I have given you citations and quotes straight from the letter of the law, directly backing up my claims, while proving your blanket statements that all digitized lending was illegal as patently false.
Petitioning to change the law is not the only way to change it. For instance, I believe piracy from, say, streaming services, is ethical, if those same streaming services are jacking up rates, adding ads, and enshittifying their core product for the sake of making a quick buck. how else are you supposed to change things?
I’m sure you’ve seen the immense public backlash and legislative attempts to fix the rapidly enshittifying entertainment industry. They haven’t worked.
Look, even regardless of all my arguments for how I believe the vast majority of what the Internet Archive did was legal, I don’t care if it was. Because, in the end, If you own a book, you should be allowed to let other people read it. If people are losing access to literature, you should be able to make it available to as many people as possible. If companies are rapidly exploiting the public library system and looting it for everything it has, you should be able to offer an alternative.
These publishers do not deserve my, nor your sympathy.
Your arguments read like you believe a DRM-protected ebook file is a verbatim copy that can be freely distributed and used. I just want to clarify that it is not, not even on a technical level. The form of DRM that libraries use is not just a license you agree to. It is an ecryption that turns that ebook into a garbled mess for anyone but the person who borrowed the ebook, during a set timeframe. After that period expires it cannot be decrypted anymore and stays a garbled mess forever, irrevocably ceasing to be a copy.
It is literally impossible to send a file over the internet with no more than one copy. Every additional “loan” is multiple additional copies. Even if we ignore that, you’re very conveniently ignoring the “material objects” part of that definition, which again, completely and unconditionally disqualifies a loan over the internet.
DRM is entirely irrelevant. It has no bearing on anything.
They filed a lawsuit because IA flagrantly and egregiously violated their rights. They openly fucking dared them to. And now they don’t get ignored on their limited copy illegal lending and can’t get away with any copies.
I’m not, it’s just that the wording of the definition could lead to you interpreting it as such. It does not mean what you think it means.
In essence, it’s saying that if a material object is “fixed” (under copyright law, that tends to mean captured in a medium that allows it to be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated) it is considered a copy. Copyright law generally considers things like written texts (i.e. transcribing a book onto other sheets of paper) to be copies, but it also includes things like recordings, which are very much nontangible. (although still stored on tangible hardware) Also, note the “either directly or with the aid of a machine or device” section of that description.
The fact you consider DRM to be irrelevant in a conversation about managing legal access to digitally distributed content shows a lot about your understanding of this topic, to say the least.
DRM is highly relevant. If it were not, then all libraries would already be illegally publishing copies under the agreements they sign with publishers when they distribute books through DRM-protected applications like Overdrive or Libby. Legal consequence also does not extend past the original publisher if the intent was clearly not to deliberately allow for further copying. (i.e. if the Internet Archive stated they lent books so users could copy them and later share them with friends, that would be a violation. Instead, they have loan terms, limits, and DRM)
If anything done by a user after the lending of any material, outside of reasonable safeguards (like DRM) was to be considered illegal, then any store would be liable if someone used a kitchen knife to kill someone, and any chemical distributor would be liable if someone in a lab mixed the wrong chemicals together and made an explosion. Liability has an end point, and DRM helps signify that by placing technical restrictions on redistribution of material, while also carrying heavy legal penalties for breaking it, which would not be present if it wasn’t applied in the first place.
Publishers should not be able to sue libraries for lending their books, digital, physical, or otherwise. Especially when the publishers could not demonstrate any material harm.
You are actively defending multi-billion dollar publishing companies suing a library for lending content they legally acquired, using faulty interpretations of the law, and deference to lawsuits as a means of judging the morality of actions. You haven’t made a single point that wasn’t either verifiably untrue, or misinformed.
I would advise you to reevaluate your position.
DRM is relevant to the legal redistribution because that is part of the terms of their license agreement and for no other reason. Their entire lending practice of digital copies is legal because, and only because, they have contracts that specifically determine how they may do so.
It does not in any way alter the nature of blatant illegal copies. It does not make every loan not multiple distinct illegal copies.
I’m actively opposing people telling insane, completely unhinged lies that aren’t even loosely connected to reality to validate a position that every single person with a shred of common sense knew was going to get laughed out of court the day they did it and did get laughed out of court. If you tried this case a million times, Internet Archive wouldn’t have a chance in any of them.
Petition for changes to the law. Don’t lie and pretend the law says what you want it to.
This is simply not true. If someone takes means to prevent illegal action, in a situation where they can choose to either do so, or not do so, taking those means shows they are attempting to prevent any negative legal outcomes.
The Internet Archive was explicitly, voluntarily enacting similar policy to libraries that directly license books from publishers, because they knew that it would show they were making an effort to lend responsibly. To me, it seems they carried on this set of ethics to when they opened up more copies than they originally had on hand, because that was during a time when library branches were becoming physically inaccessible, and physical resources were becoming increasingly hard to access, thus, responsible lending would include effectively making the inaccessible physical copies in other libraries accessible. That part might not be considered legal, but again, who cares? These publishers saw a substantial increase in profits during the time they were supposedly hurt by the Internet Archive, and continue to squeeze traditional libraries for every penny they can get under exploitative lending agreements. What the Internet Archive did was for the objective moral good of society.
If anything’s illegal, it’s compelling libraries to only license your content directly from you for a higher rate, while trying to discourage them from using the physical copies they can buy once like any other sane person.
I have not misrepresented the law by pretending it says something else. I have given you citations and quotes straight from the letter of the law, directly backing up my claims, while proving your blanket statements that all digitized lending was illegal as patently false.
Petitioning to change the law is not the only way to change it. For instance, I believe piracy from, say, streaming services, is ethical, if those same streaming services are jacking up rates, adding ads, and enshittifying their core product for the sake of making a quick buck. how else are you supposed to change things?
I’m sure you’ve seen the immense public backlash and legislative attempts to fix the rapidly enshittifying entertainment industry. They haven’t worked.
Look, even regardless of all my arguments for how I believe the vast majority of what the Internet Archive did was legal, I don’t care if it was. Because, in the end, If you own a book, you should be allowed to let other people read it. If people are losing access to literature, you should be able to make it available to as many people as possible. If companies are rapidly exploiting the public library system and looting it for everything it has, you should be able to offer an alternative.
These publishers do not deserve my, nor your sympathy.
Your arguments read like you believe a DRM-protected ebook file is a verbatim copy that can be freely distributed and used. I just want to clarify that it is not, not even on a technical level. The form of DRM that libraries use is not just a license you agree to. It is an ecryption that turns that ebook into a garbled mess for anyone but the person who borrowed the ebook, during a set timeframe. After that period expires it cannot be decrypted anymore and stays a garbled mess forever, irrevocably ceasing to be a copy.