That pic is great, haha. Woman looks so smug.
This is really nice! This is the future!
I’d love to know how much they produce, especially during the winter/monthly.
That kind of depends on what you’re building. Standard is currently 800W (2 standard solar panels). Older models use 600W, other models are using 2000W and limit it to 800W. That doesn’t make much sense, but skirts our local regulations that limits them to 800W, but of course generates more energy.
It then also depends on where you live. Can you point it to the sun? Do you live in sunny Spain or in northern Norway? In Germany a 800W system can produce 800-1200kWh per year. Our average electricity price is at 0.35€, so you’ll save 280€-420€ a year. And those systems are dirt cheap, there are deals out there where you can get one for 200€. That is quite a good ROI for something that you can install in an hour.
If you want to know more, here is a calculator https://priwatt.de/service/ertragsrechner/
Yeah I get all that, but what if I need heating in the winter and have very low consumption in the summer? That is why I’m searching for real world numbers. If you give me some for a specific place then I can at least have a ballpark number if what I might get where I live.
OTOH as you say, they start to be so cheap it’s almost impossible to go wrong…
That won’t really work as that is the worst scenario for solar. I can give you real world data from southern germany. I don’t have balcony solar, but a 13,4kWp solar system on my roof. Here is the data from this year:
As you can see, days are getting longer in Feb, generation is going up. To get a rough estimate, take my data and divide it by 16,75. That won’t give you a lot of heating, esp. with a normal space heater. Even if you had a scenario, where your 800W solar system would produce 800W in the winter, your space heater will suck 2000W. Take a look at its power cord, you’ll see how much it uses.
So yeah, 800W is not much, but will cover your running appliances like your fridge, freezer, router or computer on sunny days.
Hey thank you! I’m definitely saving this off for my future calculations!
You’re totally correct about the rest, and I’m now able to roughly see if I should buy a 800 system or two, or theee… Electric hookups included in the calculation of course.
Be careful there - you’re pushing electricity in your grid and there is a reason why only one system is permitted in Germany. Don’t hook up two or three without talking with an expert.
In the Northern hemisphere, in Winter the Sun is at a low angle, so vertically oriented panels might produce more. As an example, I have a sunroom and at Winter’s Solstice the sunlight reaches about 3-4 meters into the room. At Summer’s Solstice there is no direct sunlight in the room, as the Sun is overhead.
Do you have any numbers :-) ?
I have a sunroom, what sort of numbers are you asking for? It’s a partly cloudy day, about 22C in the room, without heat. And about 7C outside.
Nice numbers <3
couple of things to note:
- Not every balcony is southern facing
- Most older European homes don’t have A/C yet, so electrical costs are more during the winter months (that trend will change though I imagine)
- I think the numbers @Valmond@lemmy.world was asking about involved power output, that of course depends on the size of your array, daily/monthly/yearly differences in weather, and all sorts of little nuances that’s hard to say without averaging out years worth of data.
not very much, especially during the winter, the best way to optimize panel production is by pointing it towards the sun most effectively, the farther north, or south, of the equator the less effective it is, the less directly it points towards the sun in general, the less power you make.
It might still produce a decent amount of power overall, through a reasonable period of time, but it’s probably WELL below what you could be making with an optimized install, especially one with solar tracking, granted some solar power is still better than no solar power, so you do get tradeoffs at the end of the day.
as another commenter said, there are solar power calculators out there, if you’re looking for rough figures, use them.
Thanks for the input, but I yet have to find a calculator that shows how much you generate per month and not only oer year!
im pretty sure most of the will do a yearly breakout over the months? A really big reason to use them is to figure out maximum and minimum production throughout the year, so idk what calculator you’re using, but any good ones should be able to calculate that.
I’ve used PVwatts before, and it does spit out monthly data, though it can also bring in some more complex data, it’s a whole field of research, and it’s worth investing time into if you’re curious about it.
Hey thank you! I re-checked out PVwatts (the link was used ☺️I probably avoided it because you have to put your address in, I don’t want calls etc. Turns out the city is enough) it’s exactly what I needed, thanks!
it requires you to put in your address to locate your lat and long so it can properly calculate your energy production, especially throughout the year. It may still do some tracking on that, but it’s unlikely to be anything significant unless you have an account and money tied to it somehow.
But yes, a place close by you will work just as fine. Though you can expect some level of inaccuracy, it’s probably not that significant if you’re reasonably close.
Yes and thanks again, there are soo many crap sites out there I just gave up!
Germans also have 7 times the power bill
I blame Bavaria. If Germany had multiple price zones like other European countries instead of one giant one prices would plummet here in the north, while they’d explode in Bavaria. The state that does not want wind power, does want nuclear power, but already knows ahead of time that its geology (with lots of mountains and granite) is unsuitable for nuclear waste storage. Meanwhile, north German wind power and Scandinavian hydro dams complement each other perfectly. The Bavarians could do the same with the Austrians, they just don’t. They want to eat cake and have it, too.
Am Bavarian can confirm. The CSU has been in power this state since forever. Especially old people just keep voting for them cause it’s the way it always was. They had to form a coalition after the last elections. Their partner is essentially the exact same party but even more right wing. Not even kidding, I could not name a single area where they differ other than their main guy apparently handed out nazi newspapers in his younger years or smth. He blamed it on his brother and then the scandal just died off.
Those small balcony systems pay for them here in Germany at ~35 Cents/kWh in a few months. Even if your power bill is 7x cheaper, they will pay for themselves easily.
nb4 someone laughs at us Germans for pulling out of nuclear power: No, nuclear is not cheap. It’s literally the most expensive way to generate electricity. Solar is cheap and better for the environment.
Nuclear is reliable, predictable and stable 24/7 source. Solar not so much and possibly not that great for the environment if we don’t figure out what to do with used solar panels. Also their production is not exactly clean. Whereas nuclear requires a wasted fuel storage somewhere and the fuel will eventually run out of radiation in some hundreds of thousands years.
Storing something extremely dangerous extremely safely for “some hundreds of thousands of years” doesn’t exactly sound cheap, does it?
Not that expensive either. And that’s already included in the energy price. Also volume is magnitudes smaller than used solar panels.
Nuclear is cheaper than your average electricity cost.
I know because I’m Swedish and you use us as your cheap electricity.
No, nuclear is not cheap. It’s literally the most expensive way to generate electricity
Source?
Beats coal anytime. Or Russian gas.
French electricity enters the chat.
French electricity leaves the chat in summer when their plants need to be shut down because the rivers are too warm or don’t carry enough water in the first place. And that’s nothing to say what they will do in the next decade years when a good portion of their reactors should be commissioned out.
The relentless march of sustainable cosplay continues. A million Germans clinging to plasticky solar trinkets like rosary beads against energy insecurity—how very on-brand for a nation that dismantled nuclear plants to cozy up with Putin’s pipelines. Nothing screams “green revolution” like propping up coal while bureaucrats hyperventilate over balcony wattage permits.
But sure, let’s pretend these glorified battery chargers absolve collective guilt. Social media’s latest performative ritual—slap a panel on your railing, flood Instagram with hashtags, ignore the 14-month waiting list for certified installers. Peak late-stage decarbonization theater: all aesthetics, no grid.
At least it’s honest. We’ve stopped pretending policy can fix anything. Why demand competent governance when you can DIY your dystopia?
how very on-brand for a nation that dismantled nuclear plants to cozy up with Putin’s pipelines.
classic german meme, to be fair, they do actually have some pretty decent renewable production, they just really shot themselves in the foot while hiking up a mountain with that move.
Germany’s energy transition is a masterclass in contradictions. Dismantling nuclear plants—clean, reliable, and efficient—only to lean on Russian gas and coal is not just shortsighted but self-sabotaging. The Energiewende, while ambitious, has exposed Germany to geopolitical vulnerabilities and grid instability. Renewable expansion is commendable but insufficient without robust infrastructure and energy storage.
The reliance on balcony solar panels and rooftop systems reeks of performative sustainability. These micro-solutions barely scratch the surface of Germany’s energy needs yet are paraded as revolutionary. Meanwhile, bureaucratic inertia delays large-scale renewable projects.
The nuclear phase-out, driven by political expediency rather than pragmatism, left an energy vacuum filled by fossil fuels. A true green transition demands realism: embrace nuclear, bolster renewables, and stop romanticizing half-measures.
Nuclear as clean? Now that’s loco talk.
it literally is clean, the only dirty thing about it is building a nuclear plant, and the mining of uranium, the only unique thing here being the mining of uranium, and technically the scale of construction, but im still not convinced that a nuclear plant produces more CO2 in construction phase, than it will offset in it’s lifetime, maybe solar and wind edge it out, but again, nuclear energy already exists, it’s a heavily established industry and well regulated, so it’s not like it should be the first focus on the chopping block. Especially compared to all the modern problems we have with solar, like the rare earth metals, and mining conditions often experienced. Wind turbines are better, but have issues with scaling, and waste.
The destructiveness of mining uranium, the toxic cooling water, spend radioactive fuel rods and contaminated machinery.
Real clean…
Are you under the impression that the people buying solar for themselves are against sustainable energy solutions on a state level?
Read it as germans who are 1.5 meter tall, wondered why them being short is relevant.
“100 million smokers can’t be wrong!”
“Plug-in solar is part of the whole array of options,”
I don’t understand how this works, for our system the “plug in” is an inverter that cost about $3000.- (half if it doesn’t have to handle a battery), and it needs to be installed by an authorized electrician.
For a small system as the one shown, the price of panels are peanuts, the ones shown should cost less than $150. While to the cost of inverter and getting it connected are way way higher.The article says nothing about how the power from those panels is made usable.
If you pay 3000€ for an inverter then that’s probably included installing and whatnot. You can get a cheap 50€ 4kW inverter on aliexpress, or an expensive 500€ 10kW one.
No the price was not including installation, We have 11.2 kW panels and 7.5 kWh batteries. Installation was almost $5000.- !! That was probably mostly the 28 panels on the roof. But we had one installer handling everything, who was also responsible for the electrician.
That’s a massive installation though! Wow!
Also, you got a biig roof!
When we bought the house, that was one of the parameters on our list for “the perfect house”. So the roof to the garden is also almost perfectly towards the south. 😀
Even in January we’ve made 41% of our power consumption from the solar panels. 😎 You are right that it is a bit oversized according to “normal” recommendations which are 8 kWh for a house the size of ours, but we went a bit bigger in preparation for air to water heat pump, so warming the house will be electric, (currently wood pellets), and also we plan to buy an electric car within the next 2 years.Also it was a bit for fun, because of the movie spinal tap, so our panels go to 11 instead of just 10, because we need that little bit extra. 😋
Smart planning! Thanks for the story, are you planning to go off grid or is it just to be economically free? Any batteries in the future? Excellent reference, and implementation, I’m giving you an 11 out of ten!
Thanks. 😀
Going off grid was absolutely a consideration, but only for a very short while. There are too many downsides. We would need twice as much solar capacity, and a way bigger battery, and batteries are still pretty expensive, but even with that, we would still need a generator. And we wouldn’t be able to sell surplus energy. It would more than double the cost, and only provide 25% better self sufficiency for the whole year than we have now.
We live in Denmark, and we can risk to have to go through almost all of December with only a few days sun. Running a diesel generator for power would be both noisy and smelly, It would also require more work to maintain, and it would actually cost slightly more to us a generator than to simply buy the electricity from the grid.Remember doubling our capacity will not bring us from 41 to 82% self sufficiency. Because there is some loss in storage, and even double our battery capacity would not be enough to store 48 kWh like we made today in the span of only 7 hours. (Today was the best day of the year yet. 😎)
Even in January on a perfect day, we can make twice what we use, but such days are rare in January. (we use about 15 kWh per day.)The final problem with a generator is that we would never be able to achieve remotely the stability we have with the grid. We’ve been living here for 6½ year, and the power has only been out once!!!
The problem with making it bigger than we have at all, is that after you’ve reached a point of above 50% self sufficiency, you are entering the area of diminishing returns quickly. On a yearly basis we are about 72% self sufficient. To reach that extra 22% probably cost 50% extra.
This is if you live as high north as we do, because the extra capacity is only usable in the winter, in the summer it’s all surplus, and you get so little for selling the power it’s basically irrelevant. There is too much solar now, so when solar panels have high yields, prices often go down to almost zero.
Going off grid is a lot easier if you live further south.
Thanks again for all the information!
Yeah, going off grid is a whole philosophical idea in itself, way smarter to share with the grid if you’re not in some very specific situation IMO.
I always thought that those calculations about solar was a bit bogus, like you extrapolate the earnings today over say 12 years to pay off an installation, of course it will get cheaper in the future and as more people have solar, revenu goes down too. Seems you solidify that idea!
Today though it starts to be almost a criminally good investment… Living in an appartment I seriously think I might get one of those balcony panels this year, just gotta check out how it actually works when ju inject that into the system. We redid all the electricity so we have separate lines for about everything, will the sun powered line hop over to another one (they are after all all tied together at the central input) and how many amps can you allow to flow “backwards” like that and so on.
Have a look here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balcony_solar_power
OK thanks, so they are indeed complete systems including inverter, so it can be connected to the grid.
I suppose they’ve made some cheap low power inverters then, but the power still needs to have stable voltage an frequency and synchronization. So I wonder how cheap it’s possible to make?
I also suppose it still needs an authorized electrician to connect it? Unless Germany has some fancy system that is prepared for “plug in” connection of a local power source.In the EU, as long as it’s under 800W it can be plugged directly into an outlet in your home without any kind of installation, back-feeding the grid that way.
You’re not getting paid anything for the power you send back into the grid so anything you don’t use you lose.
Still very cool, because selling surplus power is almost completely worthless anyway. (at least it is here)
In the summer when you can sell, prices are generally extremely low, we have sold about twice what we use, but the value of selling is only about 5-10% on average, compared to the savings of using it ourselves. That’s because the price often drop to close to zero in the middle of the day, and sometimes even below.
Electricity itself is dirt cheap, the reason the prices are high are transportation and taxes, and short peak prices. Here transportation alone is more than the electricity itself during winter.
And we are only paid the pure electricity price here, which I suppose is the case most places.
It literally plugs into the wall.
That’s amazing. 😀
The “balcony” bit isn’t the defining characteristic, it shouldn’t be taken literally. Some people do have their “balcony solar power” on their roofs.
What defines it is limitation to 800 W and inverters that come with a normal Euro Type F (“Schuko”) plug and no legal requirement for professional installation. A layman can literally plug it in to an existing wall socket. Given that they are capped at 800 Watts, the inverters are also the simplest type and dirt cheap (although often they are literally just software-capped and identical to higher power ones, make of that what you will). Complete systems (2 panels, cabling, inverter) cost between 299€ and 800€ depending on quality. You genuinely only have to buy a fixture that suits your needs and a mate to help you install it.
Proper several-Kilowatt-systems are very expensive in Germany too.
Thanks really good info. 👍😀
A layman can literally plug it in to an existing wall socket
I had no idea that is possible??? Is that special for Germany? (sorry for keeping on with new questions). 😋 I’ve never heard of that option here in Denmark.
cost between 299€ and 800€
No wonder it’s a popular option, our system is of course bigger with 11.2 kWh and 7.5 kWh battery. but it was $17000 1½ year ago. Prices have dropped to $12500 for a similar system, but still such an 800W system is dirt cheap by comparison.
Clearly not special for Germany, since the entire article is… entirely about Spain, actually.
The option highlighted here is very interesting, but as a test of reacting to headlines vs clicking through it’s an amazing case study. The German thing is a quote from a Spanish seller of this tech explaining why he’s confident it will take off.
I had no idea that is possible??? Is that special for Germany?
I mean, the regulation seems to be, but there’s no fancy tech going on. I’m not an electrician but I think I can explain, as I have recently tried to understand it as well.
So German wall outlets usually have a 16 A fuse and the wiring in the walls is dimensioned for safety reasons to accommodate slightly higher current (I think they are 2.5mm² gauge allowing up to 20 A but don’t quote me on that particular part). I suppose it would be the same or very similar in Denmark, or maybe most of Europe that uses 230V/50Hz AC.
Now, normally, if you have dangerously powerful load that would melt your wires, let’s say 5 kW, and you plug it in to an outlet the fuse will just pop and you’re safe. If however you have a 2 kW PV system connected to a wall outlet nearby, it would theoretically be possible that your 5 kW load draws 13 A (3 kW) from the mains through the fuse and another 8.7 A (2 kW) from the PV system over the same wire in the wall that is only rated at 20 A but now carries 21.7 A. And the fuse would never pop at 13A. A fire hazard. The number of 800 Watts is basically just what will always comfortably fit into the safety margin of the wiring in German houses. All higher power systems need to be hardwired by professionals “behind” the fuse box so that every Amp goes through the normal 16 A fuse.
still such an 800W system is dirt cheap by comparison
Absolutely. I guess the low threshold for installation allows some kind of mass market economy of scale.
Great post! Thanks for doing the math and explaining the concepts!
There are already a few requirements for operating the balcony panels, At least here in Germany:
- You need a suitable electricity meter
- You have to register with a relevant authority and inform the electricity provider that you are operating a “balcony power plant”.
- The microconverter should run on its own secured circuit. (“Should”, will certainly do very few) But technically it is simple:
- Set up panels
- Connecting necessary plugs
- Microconverter to the socket
- Be happy that you produce up to 800 watts of your own electricity
I think it’s almost irrelevant how many panels you ultimately split up. However, no more than 800 watts may be fed in.But if you have panels with, let’s say, 2000 watts, you can of course charge various batteries with them beforehand. Nobody can say anything against it.
You need a suitable electricity meter
That makes sense, we also needed new meter, and that was about €200.- with installation. Not a big deal for a big installation, but for a system that can cost only €300.- an extra 200.- would be pretty significant.
Just for your information : belgium is allowing the balcony solar panels this year, but they have put limits on which you can install. The power supplier needs to have approved the kit you install. This is just to prevent people from getting cheap crap from the internet.
Other than that, same rules!Wait really? I didn’t know we finally caught up with the neighbors!
Officially it’s allowed after April 17th, but there’s already an extensive list of approved devices.
https://www.test-aankoop.be/woning-energie/hernieuwbare-energie/nieuws/plug-and-play-zonnepaneel
There’s probably a french version of that article as well, but test- achats/aankoop hasn’t made it easy to switch languages :)
There are two main inverter approaches. One big inverter that takes the DC from a bunch of panels and converts it into AC and micro inverters where each panel gets it’s own small one placed directly under the panel.
The micro inverters cost around $150 each. So you need around 10 panels before the single inverter becomes a good choice.
Installers love the micro because the install is easier. However as a owner with say 30 panels you now have 30 points of possible failure instead of the 1.
Oh boy, apparently there’s a lot I don’t know. It’s really cool there are those cheaper options now.
Balcony solar is a set of diy technologies that require no utility permissions.
In Germany, NL, you can just plug it into socket and it works somehow.
In us you can use powerstations and also adapters that sync draw from battery as it charges from ac in house.
It pays for itself even with more expensive equipment, by not needed license, permission, that can lead to cheap efficient panels costing over 3$ per watt. Small systems that just offset use instead of selling back, have higher revenue offsets in high per kwh priced markets.
In Germany, NL, you can just plug it into socket and it works somehow.
This is incredibly dangerous as it will feed power into the grid even when the grid is down. You might say ‘that is great!’, yeah, well, the line technicians who cannot work on damaged cables because you are energizing them think otherwise.
One of the reasons home solar grid-feeding systems are expensive in the US is they have extra equipment to disconnect the system from the grid if the grid goes down. Your house can still have local power, but you won’t be energizing powerlines technicians are trying to fix.
These plugin systems shut down automatically when there’s a power outage. To make sure that they really do shut down when needed, in Belgium only plugin systems that have been approved by the network management organisation may be used. The other countries that allow these probably have similar precautions.
I wonder if a whole building could use one or two inverters?
I feel that’ll make the cost reasonable
For apartment buildings I don’t think that’s possible, since electricity is a per household connection with separate meter.
I’m sure this is a good thing, but considering the vast majority of Germans haven’t figured out screens on windows I’m not sure the appeal to authority in the title has the desired effect.
What screens are you talking about?
We have fly screens in our windows. Windows which can be tilted btw.
You also have the best shutters ever.
Like fly screens?
Becausr in that case I don’t get it.Maybe he/she refers to the operating system from Microsoft?
But what screens does he/she mean? Lock screen? Desktop? screensaver??
Very weird.
Wait that’s a thing?
Holy shit that a thing!? That’s awesome!!
My dumb ass: “Is it just 1.5m Germans, or other heights too?”
1.5m Germans are 150cm people !
M in million should always be capitalised for this reason.
1.5M Germans vs 1.5m Germans
Until I read this comment I was 100% certain the post was about short Germans somehow preferring having their balconies occluded by taller-than-them solar panels.
1.5 10^6 Germans vs 1.5 10^-3 Germans
Megagermans vs milligermans
This me me lol. Thank you 😂
Megagermans just sound evil.
And milligermans, well there’s a vaccine against that I think.
This article is more than 1 month old
Oh no! Quick! To the incinerator!
i mean, it’ll work. You should probably just collectively work together to install a solar array on the roof of the apartment instead, assuming it doesn’t already have one.
Granted this is in the EU, so ideal solar tracking is kinda just, fucked. It matters more closer to the equator, because you can get significantly more power from pointing them correctly, and tracking, if you decide to use that.
any form of collective project requires organization, which conveniently is not required for an individual project that can be as impulsive and unsafe as the individual wants.
Balcony solar is not unsafe though. At least it is not more unsafe than say putting a plant pot on your balcony, or operating power appliances like fridges, stoves, washing machines…
the electricity can be unsafe, such as if you just teist wires together and don’t bother covering them.
Rooftop solar has a huge upfront cost and requires the building owner/operator do it. It’s out of the control of individuals and out of their price range.
Balcony solar is completely under your control, within most people’s budget, and you simply plug it in
While tracking might let you collect more energy, you also lose more of your balcony, and you’re back to making the install expensive and complicated. Not worth it
yeah and uh, idk if you noticed, generally more than one person lives in an apartment building, it’s about as good as it’s going to get unless you’re installing solar from tax payer money, or utility company money.
While tracking might let you collect more energy, you also lose more of your balcony, and you’re back to making the install expensive and complicated. Not worth it
dont use tracking on a balcony??? Also not all tracking setups are expensive and complicated, the entire reason you would want to do them is to greatly increase the total amount of power production throughout the day, and you can very easily calculate the complexity cost, maintenance cost, and additional install cost over to the potential saved/produced value of the array post installation.
I mean if you’re doing 2 axis tracking, sure it’s probably more expensive, but one axis tracking is still reasonably effective, especially if you’re in a decent spot and able to take advantage of it. The other option is installing more panels total, and when you’re space limited, that’s going to become a constraint.
Why are you cooking for yourself at home? It would be more efficient, if you organize a shared kitchen in the house and each evening a different party cooks for everyone in the house.
Hell yeah. I do Thursdays and man people remember to come to me on Thursday.
There is something in it - they are making solar panels with chemicals that makes energy trans
We even tried to make trains trans once
Would be nice if grid tied inverters weren’t such a regulatory PITA. Micro-deployment solar, and more importantly distributed energy storage, makes so much sense and could solve a lot of grid-related problems.
I am not sure 1.5m Germans all deciding on a single course of action is something to be happy about.
You have Trump now. It’d be our turn to make jokes, if we had any humour.
Nah, making fun of germans is always ok, especially now that at least 1 in 5 voters are voting for literal Nazis again in Germany.
Why? Can you explain a little bit?
I am not sure if you are a student of history but twice before the Germans decided to go to war and have as their foe the world.
And does this have anything to do with generating power from solar panels on your own balcony?
We happily take the blame for WW2, but WW1 is on Austria!
Don’t know about “happily”. “Readily” might be more accurate.
On second thought… yeah.
And how is that related to balcony solar?
*hurrdurr* Germany! Hitler! *hurrdurr*
We have passed the torch of a fascist dystopia to another country.
Oh, German=Nazi reference, how original.
A mere drop in the bucket when 77m have decided on a much worse course of action in another country.
Nearly 100 years on time to move on and focus on the ones that carried it on I think
